Most people live a linear life: They go to college, get a job or go to graduate school, work hard to get a promotion, save up for vacations, and repeat until they retire. Every step is predictable and safe. This is why so many immigrant parents push their children to get into the best college, because it puts them on track for the highest potential salary. The higher the salary, the more financially secure and stable their lives will be. All these tracks are linear. You take one step after another in a straight line to get to your final destination: death.

I’ve often equated this linear life to playing Super Mario Bros, an old Nintendo game where there is only one way to complete the game. Like most linear games, you sidescroll through level after level beating bosses to get to Bowser, the final boss, to save the Princess. There are no shortcuts and you can’t deviate from the path, because it was designed that way.

In terms of the real world, this is like becoming a doctor. You go to college, you take your pre-med requirements and MCATs, you go to medical school, you get matched into residency, you might do a fellowship to specialize, you get hired at a hospital or private practice. You are literally on a track your entire career. It is quite possibly the most meritocratic career you can choose, because your scores and performance get you to the next level. Your MCATs, your medical boards, your medical licensing exams are all the bosses you have to beat to progress in the linear game of medicine.

In contrast, Grand Theft Auto is a game with an open world. You can freely choose where you want to go and what missions you want to complete. You can also choose not to participate in missions and skip them. You can literally win the game and not finish every mission, which is very different from Super Mario Bros., where you can’t progress without finishing each level.

Growing up, I was raised to believe that I couldn’t skip levels. I was told that I have to go to an Ivy League school, get a prestigious internship, get an MBA from Stanford or Harvard, and work to become a VP at a big company, before I could even consider starting my own company. This was all a lie. I could have started a company out of high school, but instead I chose to follow the linear track that was laid out before me. I was told I needed to pay my dues and get years of experience before I could pursue my dreams.

The Chef

Many young chefs that were told that they had to “pay their dues” in established kitchens before they could open their own restaurants. The old school thinking is that you can’t possibly be a good chef if you haven’t done your time and learned from the best. Now we’ve seen what it’s like to “learn from the best.”

Meanwhile, I’ve watched young chefs like my friend Kwame Onwuachi rise to the top of the culinary world and open the best restaurant in New York. He staged at some of the best restaurants in the world like Eleven Madison Park and Per Se, but he didn’t spend years toiling away in those kitchens. After being on Top Chef, he developed his own style of Afro-Caribbean cooking and took a risk to open a restaurant in DC that failed spectacularly, but he didn’t give up and followed it up with a wildly successful restaurant. The secret? He stopped trying to emulate what other chefs were doing and started being true to himself.

Kwame no doubt has detractors and haters who say he never did his time. But does it matter if he didn’t complete every level of the game before he beat the final boss? He skipped all of the levels he was told he had to complete to get there and he ultimately won the game anyway. Now he has a New York Times Bestselling autobiography that is being adapted by A24 into a feature film, Notes from a Young Black Chef. He has brand partnerships and collaborations with American Express, Lexus, Motorola. His followup restaurant Dōgon in DC is critically acclaimed and he is opening another restaurant in Las Vegas with Sahara.

Kwame is living the exponential life. Instead of going step by step, he carved his own path to achieve is dream. It’s like he used a cheat code in life. Except the only cheat code is not following the standard protocol accepted by everyone else. Consensus is that you are required to check off all of the boxes before you get to the top of the mountain. But according to who? Just because everyone says you have to climb the mountain, doesn’t mean you can’t take a helicopter and end up in the same place. You don’t need permission from anyone but yourself to live the exponential life. It is a choice.

Some people are born into the exponential life by inheriting wealth or being a child prodigy. The rest of us have choose to pursue it ourselves. You go down the path less taken. You don’t accept the status quo. You don’t believe in limits. You are willing to fall and get back up again and again, because you refuse to fail. You are fine being bad at something so you can get good at it. You want to be inspired and pursue your passions. You have a purpose and a mission that drives you to want to leave an impact and legacy that goes beyond yourself.

The Fashion Designer

Vera Wang spent her entire childhood training to be a figure skater for the Olympics. She began skating at the age of eight and competed in the U.S. Figure Skating Championships but failed to qualify for the U.S. Olympic team. After going back to school, she earned a degree in art history from Sarah Lawrence College and joined Vogue upon graduation. She eventually became one of the magazine’s youngest-ever senior fashion editors.

After spending 17 years at Vogue, she finally left in 1987 to serve as a design director for accessories at Ralph Lauren. While searching for her own wedding dress, she became frustrated by the lack of options and opened her own bridal gown boutique at the Carlyle Hotel in 1990. She has made wedding gowns for Mariah Carey, Chelsea Clinton, Kim Kardashian, Vanessa Hudgens, Victoria Beckham and many more. She also designed costumes for figure skaters worn at the Winter Olympics for Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, Evan Lysacek and Nathan Chen. Although it wasn’t for her figure skating, Wang was inducted into the U.S. Figure Skating Hall of Fame in 2009 for her contribution to the sport as a costume designer.

Wang would eventually build an empire from her brand. She opened bridal boutiques in New York, London, Tokyo, Seoul and Sydney. She expanded into fragrance, eyewear, homeware and shoes. She went from selling high-end wedding dresses to partnering with David’s Bridal to sell more affordable bridal gowns and with Men’s Wearhouse to sell tuxedos. Her namesake brand would catapult her into one of America’s richest self-made women, worth half a billion dollars.

There are countless stories like these, of successful people who refused to live a linear life. What they all had in common:

• No Limits. Never allow others to tell you what you can and can not do. People project their own fears and insecurities, and rarely have firsthand experience.

• Reframe Failure. Every mistake or failure is a learning opportunity that you can build upon. You must persevere or pivot and find another way.

• Compounding Experiences. Each experience is additive and contributes to your future endeavors. The more experiences you have, the better.

People choose to live linear lives, because they are much safer and more stable. Many who live exponential lives are only able to because they are born into wealth, which gives them a safety net to take risks without fear of failure or negative consequences. It’s much less intimidating to live an exponential life when you know you can keep trying again and again, because you have nothing to lose.

If you come from an immigrant or lower income family, however, you cannot afford to take as many swings. You are raised with a scarcity mindset to seek a life of security and stability, because the alternative would be disastrous. You become a trained and obedient workhorse, who is rewarded with carrots for doing a good job. You study hard and get good grades, so you can please your parents and get into a good college. You work diligently in college so you can get a high-paying job. You do everything asked of you at work so you can get promoted. But when you hit that ceiling, you are confused because you aren’t getting the recognition you are used to receiving for doing what you’re told. No one is giving you a carrot any more and you feel cheated. But you haven’t demonstrated any leadership potential, because all this time, you’ve just been good at jumping through hoops and following orders.

Fleas in a Jar

What holds people back is not the fear of not having enough, but believing that they themselves are not enough. When they are off the beaten path, they are confused and uncertain, because they’ve followed the path laid out for them their entire lives. When you go from Super Mario Bros. to Grand Theft Auto, you have no idea what your next mission is or how to make progress, because it’s not obvious. If you were raised to follow the rules, this will feel uncomfortable, because no one taught you how to choose.

All of your life you’ve been raised to achieve success in the eyes of the world, which usually is some form of financial wealth, because that is what is measurable. But what if success for you looks different? What if you defined what a successful life is on your terms?

What if success is being able to:

• spend more time with your family

• create art or music that stirs people’s souls

• teach others how to be their best selves

• travel the world with a backpack of your belongings

• do research that helps cure cancer or disease

When you reframe what success looks like for you (not for others), it might not actually be that far off.

Fleas are able to jump vertically up to three feet in the air. When they are placed in a jar with a lid, they strike the lid when they jump and fall back down. After about three days, they are conditioned to stop jumping as high to avoid hitting the lid. They have adapted their behavior based on their circumstance and environment and have effectively capped their own potential. When the lid is removed, the fleas continue to jump below the height of the now non-existent lid. Even if new fleas are introduced or new generations are born, they inherit this limited, conditioned before, acting as if they are still constrained.

Though this is only metaphor, it applies to people who have been conditioned by invisible limitations that are placed on themselves. They tell themselves that these ceilings have been holding them back, but ultimately these are excuses for not making certain choices that they have to own. They don’t know how high they can go, because they’re unwilling to even attempt breaching their self-imposed boundaries, for fear they might “fail”. This results in imposter syndrome, especially for immigrants, minorities and women, which is a rational response to a system that wasn’t designed to benefit them. You are not broken, you have been accurately reading a room that was designed to make you doubt yourself.

Just as we must define what success looks like for ourselves and not for others, we need to understand why failure makes us so afraid. For some it is the shame. Shame is something we feel when we care too much about how others perceive and judge us. In reality, we are in control of feeling shame. Being shameless is often seen in a negative light. But being shameless makes you bold and fearless. For others it is fear of ending up empty-handed. If failure is based on opportunity cost or financial anxiety, ask yourself what the real cost is. How much do you really need to give yourself a shot? You built up that resume for a reason, do you really believe you couldn’t get a job if things don’t work out?

Most people have an inner voice that tells them why they can’t do something. Instead, try asking yourself: Why not me? You need to stop believing that successful people are somehow born “special” and different from you. Kwame Onwuachi was a kid from the Bronx that sold candy bars on the train. Vera Wang was a figure skater who didn’t make the Olympics. They made choices along the way that changed their trajectory from linear to exponential.

AI Changes the Equation

The world is rapidly changing with uncertainty around how AI will upend different sectors and industries. Jobs that seemed safe and secure choices in the past, will be obsolete. Anything that can be automated will likely be replaced by agents: lawyers, accountants, bankers, doctors, engineers, etc. All of these were careers that were pushed by immigrant parents because they were a surefire way to earn a good living. They didn’t require taking any risks, just keeping your head down and working hard. The very reason these jobs were reliable and predictable, is the reason they will be the first to be automated. UC Berkeley has one of the top computer science programs in the world and 23% of recent graduates are unemployed. The linear life is the one that is most at risk.

In a world being rapidly automated, people need to rely on adaptability, creativity and resilience. You need to be thinking on a higher order plane about what builds value for people. You need to be flexible and able to pivot without fear of failure, constantly being curious and agile. You have to be the one who is calling the shots and managing the automation, not being replaced by it.

Think about it this way: AI can easily do anything you can program into a formula or decision tree, or anything that is easily repeatable that can be learned. And it does it 100x faster than a human. If your daily work is made up of routines, then it can likely be automated. A radiologist looking at X-rays or MRIs to detect fractures? Automated. A CPA that fills out your tax forms and filings? Automated. A lawyer that reviews contracts, checks for regulatory compliance, and drafts documents? Automated. In a world of gatherers, you need to be a hunter to survive.

How to Become a Hunter

As the child of conservative Taiwanese immigrants, I spent my early life living linearly. I jumped through all the hoops of Ivy League college, big name consulting firm, top business school, and numerous fancy corporate jobs. My identity was completely tied to my resume and I was terrified of leaving that secure path. I was afraid of my parents disapproval and disappointment. I was anxious about being judged by friends and even strangers. I cared so much about how others viewed me and my success. When I finally decided to leave that path and start my own company, I realized how little all of that mattered. I was so fulfilled by being my own boss and doing what I wanted to do with my life, that I couldn’t care less what strangers thought of me. And if they were friends who weren’t supportive, I didn’t need them in my life.

That was my first taste of agency and making my own choice, not the choice of my parents or society. Since then, I have continued to make choices that have empowered me to live an exponential life. Choosing to create a community of Asian American founders. Choosing to pool angels to invest over $30 million in 100 companies. Choosing to write an open letter condemning Asian hate crimes and publish it in the Wall Street Journal. Choosing to finance a documentary about Jeremy Lin. Choosing to launch a venture capital fund. Choosing to start Hyphen Nation to publish essays and a podcast to inspire others. I didn’t need permission, I had to make choices.

Every one of these decisions led to an experience with compounding returns that created more opportunities and choices. I didn’t escape my linear life, I just learned how to leverage and compound it into an exponential one with my decisions. This isn’t about leaving your life behind. Nothing you’ve lived is wasted. Your life is a book, and every chapter adds to the last one. This is about proactively investing in the life you’ve built in a way that will hopefully yield compounding returns. Was it easy making these choices or was it a smooth journey along the way? Not at all. But looking back, each of these decisions shaped who I am today and I am grateful for making them.

The founder community gave me access to entrepreneurs and investors for my angel syndicate. Together we’ve invested in multiple billion dollar companies like Gamma, Formation Bio, Persona and Super.com among others. The syndicate I grew, allowed me to instantly recruit hundreds of prominent signatures for my open letter which helped raise millions of dollars. Through this group, I also found fellow financiers to help produce 38 at the Garden which resulted in winning my first Emmy Award. This notoriety has led to speaking opportunities, awards, board positions like the Smithsonian Asian Pacific Center and even being featured in museums like the Museum of Chinese in America and the Milken Center for Advancing the American Dream. All of these amazing experiences coupled with my network have inspired my essays and conversations for the podcast, which has motivated me to write a book. Instead of asking myself why I should do something, I’ve started asking myself why not?

My first-hand advice on shifting from a linear to exponential life:

Take small steps to gain confidence. Define success for yourself. Work backwards and figure out what it takes to get there. When you take small steps towards a dream, it can gradually help to build more self-confidence and belief in what is possible. When I started working on a side project and gradually convinced myself that there was a there there. I only needed a little bit of proof that I could earn a living to quit my job and start my first company. Before I started my first venture capital fund, I invested in numerous startups by syndicating SPVs (special purpose vehicles). Once I realized the value I could bring to the table and started seeing returns, I knew I could build a fund. The only way to find out if a dream is worth chasing is to start working on it. That is by far the hardest part. Whether it’s a book or a business, just get started. Once you’ve achieved your goal, you will realize that you can start taking even bigger swings.

Surround and inspire yourself with other people living exponential lives. It’s a lot easier to take risks and think big when you see others doing it regularly. Watching them not only succeed but fail, and realizing the downside isn’t as bad as you projected it to be. Naysayers and passive people will only project their fears and doubts onto you, and you don’t need that kind of pessimistic energy around you.

Say yes to more opportunities that come your way. Take that coffee meeting when someone reaches out. Join that non-profit advisory board. Go to that conference that you’ve been interested in attending. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, opportunities will come your way when you least expect them, but you have to make room for them. Expand your network because it will open up more doors that weren’t available to you before.

Stop worrying about what others think. We underestimate the power and influence others have over our decisions. Many children of immigrants have spent their lives seeking the approval of their parents, because they feel indebted to them for their sacrifice. If you’ve been on a track your whole life, you are also afraid of judgment by your peers who have been on the same track with you. Only when you free yourself from the burden of others expectations, can you truly start living your life.

People can become very successful living a linear life, but they might not find fulfillment, especially if that life path was decided for them by someone else. I know plenty of financially successful lawyers and doctors who hate their jobs. Now even those jobs are at risk of becoming made obsolete in the new era of AI technology. An exponential life is about finding success as defined by you, which means it will be inherently purpose-driven and fulfilling.

So to those who have recently been laid off from their jobs: Don’t despair. Reframe it as a blessing that you are free from the hamster wheel. Now you have a head start to figure out how to become a hunter and start living an exponential life. You don’t need to manufacture audacity from scratch, it should come from knowing that your story is worth telling. I realized that I didn’t need to become someone else to start living the exponential life, I just had to give myself permission to be fully me. Everyone has the power to give themselves that permission. You don’t have to follow a script that wasn’t written for you. This week, take one step by doing something not on the script you’ve been given. It’s up to you to start writing your own script.

If you are never uncomfortable, it means you’re not growing. There is a reason they are called growing pains. Growing means expanding your horizons and doing things that you’re not good at. It means falling, failing and making mistakes that make you feel embarrassed or judged. You can’t get better at anything if you don’t work at it. No one learns to ski without taking some bad wipeouts and tumbles. You can only ski black diamonds after you’ve fallen again and again on the greens. There is no sense of accomplishment when something comes easily. Amazing things can happen on the other side of discomfort.

Too many people suffer from inertia in their careers. They get too comfortable and stop taking risks. Then they wonder why they aren’t getting promoted. They go into cruise control and do things that are easy for them. They blame their managers for not recognizing their contributions, when in reality, they are meeting their job requirements but nothing more. They aren’t pushing themselves by taking on more responsibility to justify a promotion. In reality, these people are afraid of being pushed out of their comfort zones. People remember those who are bold not those who maintain the status quo.

Other individuals are afraid of failure so they refuse to take any risks. Taking on a new role or pivoting careers is scary because it is uncomfortable and unknown territory. We need to learn to show ourselves more self-compassion and grace when things don’t work out the way we hoped or planned. Only then will we be able to continue to embrace being uncomfortable.

Close Your Eyes and Jump

Often the hardest part about uncomfortable situations is the build up of tension. The sooner you break that tension with action, the less stressful it becomes. Once the deed is done, the tension dissipates and relief sets in. When you do this enough times, you begin to realize that the benefits of taking action far outweigh the anxiety that leads up to it. That anxiety is very real and can be paralyzing. It’s like standing at the edge of the bridge before a bungee jump or skydiving jump. It is terrifying right up until the point you jump, and once you do, it’s freeing because you can’t go back. And you are left with the exhilaration and accomplishment of overcoming that fear instead of letting it overcome you.

It doesn’t have to be bungee jumping, even asking the first question in a meeting can be scary for some. The fear of judgment from others can be even more anxiety-inducing than jumping off a bridge or plane. Until you realize that you can’t control what others think of you, and understand that they really don’t think about you as much as they think about themselves, you will never be free of that fear. But once you hear your own voice and others hear it, it becomes a lot easier to do again and again. Like anything else, getting good takes practice and repetition. Ask the first question. Volunteer to take the hard project. Step up to make the presentation at the conference. This is how you get seen, earn respect and ultimately get promoted.

Do What Needs to Be Done

Sometimes doing what needs to be done or saying what needs to be said, can mean having awkward or difficult conversations. This includes firing people at your job who aren’t performing, giving feedback to an administrator at your child’s school or confronting a neighbor who is causing problems. There are many situations in which we tend to avoid, because we are afraid of the discomfort and anxiety that comes with having these tense interactions. But like getting a vaccine or flu shot, it might hurt a little for a brief moment, but it needs to be done for the long term benefit of yourself and for others.

You will never be seen as a good leader at work if you are unable to handle letting go of a problematic employee. By delaying the inevitable, you merely destroy credibility with your other good employees, because they can’t trust you to do the right thing for the greater good. Avoiding your personal temporary discomfort leads to a lot of pain for other people, because you’re unwilling to do what needs to be done. I outline this in my previous essay about learning to embracing conflict.

If you want something, you should ask for it. You want that raise or promotion? Ask for it. You want to be on that project? Ask for it. You want to go on a date with that guy or girl? Ask for it. Yes, it might feel uncomfortable in the moment, but you owe it to yourself to know the answer. The worst that can happen is that you get a “no” but at least you will have an answer and can move on without speculating any longer. Life is too short to linger on the what ifs.

Speak Up for What is Right

It’s okay to speak up when you aren’t sure if others agree with you. There is nothing wrong with saying the unpopular or contrarian thing if you can back it up. If people are wrong, they are wrong, regardless of consensus. Many people agreeing that the wrong thing is right, doesn’t make it any more right. It might be uncomfortable at the time, but as Martin Luther King, Jr. said, “The time is always right to do what is right.” Moral action should not be delayed by convenience, fear, or seeking the “perfect” moment. You should always act with integrity, regardless of external pressures.

During the pandemic, I wrote an essay for a community that I had built over the years. It was not meant to be shared publicly. But a member of the group tweeted it to her 100,000+ followers, and I panicked. I thought I would be judged or make people angry with the essay. I wasn’t ashamed about anything I wrote in the essay, because it was all true. It was the fact that I was saying the quiet things out loud and calling out the discrimination against the Asian American community. I was afraid that there would be blowback, because I rarely saw someone with my resume take any risk by speaking up about the ugly truth. I wasn’t sure if I should take it down for damage control.

Prior to writing this essay, I had been extremely vocal in my condemnation of the murder of George Floyd. I was outspoken for the Black community on public spaces like LinkedIn and Twitter. But all of the sudden, when it was time to speak up for my own community publicly, I was scared. I was uncomfortable because I hadn’t gotten permission or seen anyone else in my position say these things openly before.

Rather than allow my discomfort or fear consume me and take down the essay, I embraced it because I knew it was the right thing to do. And because of that decision, Hyphen Capital was born and it became my life’s work. I have now invested over $35 million in Asian American founders and launched my own venture capital firm. If I had deleted the essay, none of this would have been possible.

Embracing Uncertainty

I speak to far too many people that are miserable at their current jobs, but they refuse to quit without having another job in hand. They would prefer to be miserable with a job they have, than risk not finding another one. Being comfortable with uncertainty means having the self-confidence and mindset that you can bet on yourself. Some people see the unknown as terrifying and scary like staring into a dark abyss. This is a result of a scarcity mindset that makes you live fearfully, always expecting the worst possible outcomes. Others see the unknown as an opportunity like an open field with multiple paths. This is a reflection of a growth mindset, believing in your own agency and ability to forge your own opportunities and success. For some, having the comfort and security of the bird in hand is worth far more than two right in front of them.

I know many who have fully embraced the uncertainty and changed careers. They gave up high-paying jobs that the world would label successful. My friend Abigail Hing Wen was a powerful lawyer working at Intel before becoming a bestselling young adult author and film producer/director. My friend Joyce Tang left her marketing job at Facebook to open a nationally acclaimed pastry business. Simu Liu famously got fired from his accounting job to pursue a successful career in acting. Robert Wang was a laid off software engineer who decided to solve how to make a healthier dinner, so he invented the Instant Pot. There are countless stories like these, of people who took a chance, even though they were unsure of what their future would hold on the other side. And while these are selective stories of success, I’ve spoken to those who have failed to make the pivot, and they have no regrets. You only get one life to live. Few people ever regret pursuing their dreams, but many regret never doing so.

Personality Types

I want to acknowledge that not everyone is wired to take risks. When I was working with an executive coach, I took an Enneagram personality evaluation. My Enneagram is a Type 7 or “The Enthusiast.”

The Enthusiast is characterized by a zest for life, optimism, and a drive for new, exciting experiences, seeking to avoid pain, boredom, and limitation by staying busy and planning future fun. While they are spontaneous, versatile, and good at generating ideas, they can become scattered, undisciplined, and avoid difficult emotions, potentially leading to overcommitment or escapism, but at their best, they are joyful, appreciative, and content.

As a person who is optimistic and drawn to new experiences, it is easier for me to take risks than a Type 6 or "The Skeptic.” A Type 6 prefers safety over uncertainty.

The Skeptic is characterized by a deep need for security, guidance, and support, stemming from a fear of threats in an unpredictable world, leading them to be vigilant, responsible, and loyal, yet prone to anxiety, self-doubt, and seeking reassurance, often becoming excellent troubleshooters by planning for what could go wrong.

I highly recommend speaking with an executive coach to better understand your personality type and how to deal with being uncomfortable. Everyone experiences fear and anxiety differently, and it’s important to know how you can most effectively deal with yours. Nothing is more helpful than self-awareness of how you personally are wired.

The fear we build up in our own minds is almost always scarier than reality. We usually anchor to the worst case scenario which is the least probable one. “I will get fired from my job if I say that.” “I won’t be able to find a job if I am unemployed.” “I won’t be able to earn an income if I change careers.” “Someone will come after me if I speak out or take a stand.” We create a bogeyman in our mind that keeps us from taking risks. But everyone knows that the bigger the risk, the bigger the reward. Because when you have agency and control, you have more earning power. Starting your own business. Building your own brand. Creating and producing your own product or intellectual property. Ownership and equity is the fastest way to freedom and success.

If you were raised in a culture with an immigrant scarcity mindset, then you likely brought up to plan for and expect the worst possible scenario. You choose a career based on security and reliability. You choose the most predictable jobs that will pay the best, lawyer, doctor, engineer or finance/accounting. The problem is that now these jobs are all being replaced by AI, exactly because they are so predictable and programmable. The safest careers are no longer safe. Nothing is guaranteed and it is a myth that anything is a sure thing anymore.

What I do know is a sure thing, is that no one gets ahead without taking chances. And taking chances requires putting yourself into uncomfortable positions. The only people who succeed are the ones who stand apart from the crowd. They are the ones who get noticed because make others take notice. They speak up, they create new products or content, they take on difficult challenges.

I recently hosted a fireside chat with Julie Kim, the CEO-elect of Takeda Pharmaceuticals. She will be the first Korean American and Asian American to lead a multinational big pharma company. She said she wouldn’t have gotten to this position if she hadn’t “led from the front.” She took on managing big business units and P&Ls. She spoke at conferences. She moved around the world solving problems. None of these things were comfortable, but she did all of them. That’s what it takes to make it to the top.

Like Julie, every successful person I know has had to step out of their comfort zones and take chances. They have had to bet on themselves time and time again. But each time, it became easier, because they learned that the odds are better than they had originally assumed. If you continue to fold every hand in life, you will never have a chance at winning. You will just continue sitting on the sidelines waiting to get in the game. Stop waiting, and start making bets.

You probably know the names Oprah Winfrey, Taylor Swift, Kim Kardashian and Sheryl Sandberg, because they are all self-made billionaires. But did you know that a Korean American woman is worth more than all of them?

Thai Lee built IT provider SHI International from next to nothing to generating $15 billion in annual revenue, making her worth $6.1 billion. She is the president and CEO of SHI and owns 60% of the company.

Lee was born in Bangkok and grew up in South Korea. She moved to the U.S. for high school at the age of 15, before attending Amherst for college where she earned a dual degree in biology and economics. She was part of the first class of women allowed to attend Amherst. Her father was a prominent economist who was the first Korean to graduate from Amherst, after working as a translator for the US army in Korea and earning a full scholarship. Thai Lee earned the title of Amherst’s most successful entrepreneur ever in 2016.

After graduating from Amherst, Lee returned to South Korea to work at auto parts manufacturer, Daesung Industrial Co. to save money to pay for graduate school. She also attended Harvard Business School, where she became the first Korean woman to graduate with her MBA. She would work in Brand Management at Procter & Gamble for two years and then in the corporate card division at American Express after business school.

In 1989, she and her ex-husband purchased a software reseller called Software House for less than $1 million which later became SHI. The company focuses on designing cloud, data center and end-user computing strategies. It has over 15,000 customers including Boeing and AT&T and is ranked among North America’s top 15 largest providers of IT solutions. SHI recently invested $20 million in a newly launched AI lab where it tests out AI solutions for customers using NVIDIA’s technology. SHI is recognized as the largest minority and woman-owned business enterprise in the United States.

At the 2019 Women in Cloud Summit, she told aspiring female entrepreneurs: “It’s OK to fail. At least you would have tried and have done your best.”

Lee is a devout Buddhist and credits Buddhist teachings for helping her maintain perspective. "The foundational belief in Buddhism is that life is unavoidably about suffering. So, learning to adjust my expectation was really a huge advantage for me, combined with hard work and learning that education really allows one to achieve mobility.”

She established the Thai Lee Foundation after meeting an inspirational young girl who was hit by Syrian government shrapnel and paralyzed. The Foundation has helped humanitarian projects from building orphanages and libraries in Turkey as well as psychosocial support centers and schools in Syria, According to the website, the foundation has benefited 3.5 million individuals and organizations with $485M in previous and current financial contributions.

She sits on the Board of Trustees of Memorial Sloane Kettering Cancer Center.

Time Magazine recently named MyFitnessPal as one of America’s Top 25 Most Iconic Companies.

Mike and Albert Lee were Korean American brothers who grew up in upstate New York in Schenectady where there were few Asian families. Their father was a metallurgist who worked at General Electric. Their mother went back to school to get a computer science degree at SUNY Albany when Mike was in middle school. He audited to her classes for fun and help her with her homework. He played baseball and volleyball in high school and went to Princeton where he could continue playing volleyball. Albert would go on to UC Berkeley. Both of them graduated with degrees in economics.

Mike would start his career in consulting at Mercer Management Consulting. Instead of applying to business school, he decided to work at the NIH for a year to do medical research. He applied to medical school and was accepted to UCLA. But after speaking to doctors who deterred him, he realized he wasn’t that passionate about it and turned them down. This was during the time of the tech boom in Silicon Valley, and decided to move from DC to San Francisco without a job and slept in a friend’s closet for six months. He finally found a job in marketing consulting for tech companies before joining a startup called Software.net which became Beyond.com (the Amazon for software). Mike would eventually join Handspring to run the e-commerce team before it was acquired by Palm.

After leaving Palm, Mike started working on a free dating site with a friend. On the side he was trying to lose weight for his wedding and was told to count calories. He didn’t want to use pen and paper, so he looked for an app or website, but they were all terrible, so he decided to build it himself. He got back into coding and MyFitnessPal was born.

Albert began his career in finance as an analyst at GE Capital before joining Yahoo in 1999. I was a product manager at Yahoo! for Yahoo! Finance and Albert was one of my fellow product managers, working on Yahoo! Shopping. Eventually we both went to business school at Stanford and Berkeley, before ending up at eBay after we got our MBAs. Albert would eventually leave eBay and return to Yahoo and work at some startups. Mike had been managing MyFitnessPal by himself and the website traffic continued to grow to the point where it exceeded the dating site, so he quit to work on it full-time. He called Albert and pulled the big brother card, telling him to quit his job and help him work on MyFitnessPal.

Mike and Al bootstrapped MyFitnessPal for eight years and never raised outside capital. They stayed lean and did everything themselves for the longest time. They had four employees when they had 30 million users visiting the website. When they launched their mobile app, they became a top fifty app in the entire app store.

VCs were literally knocking on their office door trying to give them money. They were afraid of taking outside money, because they didn’t want to have a boss again. Mike and Al hadn’t taken a salary for three years, but now the company was very profitable, so they finally paid themselves. They didn’t need the money, so they didn’t want to take on any investors.

As they talked to investors, they realized that there was value in having some of these investors help them. With the right firms, it would be more like having a partnership than having a boss. They also had heard that a lot of the big tech gorillas like Google and Apple were moving into the health space, so raising some capital would give them ammunition to defend their position.

In 2013, they decided to raise $18 million in venture capital in a a Series A from Andrew Braccia at Accel and John Doerr at Kleiner Perkins along with a $20 million secondary to take care of their families. It would be their only institutional funding round. Andrew and John were pivotal in making introductions and open doors.

MyFitnessPal had grown to the largest nutrition database in the world with more than 5 million foods. In its nine years of existence the firm has amassed more than 80 million registered users for its website and app.

In 2015, the Lee brothers agreed to be acquired by Under Armour for $475 million. They felt like it was a good cultural fit, because they had a very entrepreneurial culture driven by their founder, Kevin Plank. Mike became the only Asian on the executive team. He only cared about doing what was best for the company, and because he wasn’t trying to be political, he was promoted.

The best part of building MyFitnessPal for Mike and Al was hearing the personal stories and testimonies from their grateful users. Their product was literally changing and saving lives.

We have reduced our values to metrics, but how much of what actually makes our life valuable is easy to count?

On the latest podcast episode of Pablo Torre Finds Out, talks to the author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game, written by philosophy professor C. Thi Nguyen. He talks about how we now live in a society where everything is gamified and measured in metrics. Michelin stars, Netflix ratings, likes and followers and more.

I am old enough to remember the time before the U.S. News and World Report College Rankings existed. Back then, there were books with profiles of every college describing their values, campus life, and programs strengths and weaknesses. It required you to choose based on which school was the right fit for you. The rankings came along and simplified that choice by giving every school a numerical value with an arbitrary formula. And people just wanted to go to a school based on the rankings, rather than ask the hard questions.

As children of immigrants, many of us are forced to play the same game from a very early age: Get good grades so you can get into a good college so you can get into medical or law school and make lots of money as a doctor or lawyer. Eventually computer science engineering joined that elite group. Secure careers that were lucrative and stable. Although with AI, the game has changed and all three of those fields are a lot less stable now.

I played that game for most of my life until my 40s. Wanting to win the game by getting into the right college, the right business school, the right consulting firm, the right corporate job, raise money from the right venture capital firm, all because I was programmed to believe that at the end was a pot of gold that would ultimately bring happiness and satisfaction.

Since I stopped playing that game, I started identifying my superpowers and working on the things I care about. I have been far more successful and more fulfilled every single day because of it.

An undergraduate sent Nguyen an email that said his talk pulled her out of a five year depressive cycle. She was also an Asian immigrant kid like him, pushed to get a 4.0 GPA, a varsity athlete who suffered from anorexia.

She realized that her life had been trapped in bad games. She didn't know that she had any choice. She had taken the games that life had shoved at her and they were making her suffer. She said that something about this framing allowed her to believe that she had some choice about what she was doing and how she was going to be measured. She changed the background of her iPhone to remind her everyday of this: "Is this the game you really want to play?"

Ask yourself, are you playing the game you really want to be playing? Or was this game forced on you? Remind yourself that you always have agency and can stop playing the game any time if you want to.

Last month, Gamma announced that it had raised $68 million from Andreessen Horowitz at a $2.1 billion valuation.

In 2023, I was fortunate enough to meet Gamma CEO Grant Lee through my network and he had been following my work. Hyphen Capital ended up investing in their seed round and I obviously couldn’t be more thrilled for our LPs and for the Gamma team.

This is only the beginning for the company. Raising a round means nothing, it is just another mark on the road to liquidity. Grant and his hard working team of 52 employees and growing are generating over $100 million in annual revenue with over 70 million users. They efficiently accomplished all of this after raising only $22 million through their Series A and have been profitable for a while now.

Grant is a special founder, because he builds authentically and transparently. He regularly shares his personal learnings on LinkedIn, where his audience of 80,000 followers are. Many of whom are the target audience of Gamma and highly likely to create presentations. Grant creates value by providing insights on product, marketing, sales, fundraising and countless other business topics. These are also topics that people need to generate presentations about all the time.

Getting to Yes

I didn’t know Grant before I invested in Gamma. A trusted mutual friend who was his first investor, knew that I was supporting Asian American founders, so he introduced us when Grant was raising a seed round led by Accel. They were classmates at Stanford together and have known each other for years.

Lesson #1: Your network is your access.

If you can meet a founder through a trusted referral who speaks highly of your character and integrity, you will increase your probability of investing infinitely. Friends and existing investors are strong filters for other new investors joining the inner circle. The broader your network, the more likely you are to have a connection with a founder you want to reach. But having a wide and shallow net doesn’t mean you will catch anything. The quality and depth of that net makes a big difference.

Lesson #2: Founders want to work with people they know and trust.

Founders don’t want a wildcard in the mix, because starting a company is hard enough without having additional unnecessary drama or unpredictability on the cap table. A founder is more likely to trust you through a very warm referral than a cold outreach or lukewarm introduction. If you don’t have a warm referral and manage to connect with the founder via cold outreach, build trust in that first meeting. That means demonstrating that you will add value with your insights and questions, providing strong references from other respected founders, and simply finding commonality with each other. Sell yourself and your expertise or how you can open doors for them.

Lesson #3: Your reputation precedes you.

People often form an opinion about you before they even meet you. They do Google or LinkedIn searches and do their research. They will also backchannel you through their network to make sure there aren’t skeletons hiding in any closets. Ideally you’ve invested in companies they know of or better yet, know the founders of. Your reputation is what people say about you when you’re not in the room, and founders talk to each other and other investors.

Luckily for me, Grant had been following my advocacy work and investment in the Asian American community well before meeting me. He resonated with the Hyphen Capital mission and we clicked immediately. He saw value in my network and it helped that I was also a fellow startup founder.

Investing with a Mission

When I started Hyphen Capital, my mission was to change the false narrative that Asian Americans are not good leaders. I wanted to shatter the bamboo ceiling with story after story of successful founders who proved the naysayers wrong. I pulled together a community of investors from founders to executives to law partners to surgeons and even an NBA assistant coach, to support these founders. Our powerful network includes the founders of Old Navy, YouTube, MyFitnessPal, Gusto, Credit Karma, StitchFix, Peloton, Honey, Webflow, Patreon, Rotten Tomatoes and more. It includes the CEOs of Calm and OpenTable, CFOs of Visa, LinkedIn, Masterclass and so many others.

Together, we’ve invested in several successful companies: Safebase was acquired by Drata for $250 million. Pry Financials sold to Brex for $90 million. Revela sold to Oddity for $76 million. Formation Bio raised at a $1.7 billion valuation. Persona raised at a $2 billion valuation. In total, we’ve invested over $30 million in 100+ companies founded by Asian Americans, half of whom have female founders. Here are just a few of my favorite consumer investment stories:

The Gaming Console

An iPhone app propped up on a chair turned into the #1 selling product in Toys & Games on Amazon.

Four years ago, I invested in three co-founders from Hong Kong named David Lee, Tony Sung and Reggie Chan. My friend Alex Wu was part of my founder community Asian American Founders Circle and he ran partnerships and business development for them. Their company Nex was building a basketball AR skills app called Homecourt, which my nephews and their friends used and loved. My son tried it and he was also hooked. We found ourselves propping up my phone on a chair while he dribbled and watched the screen light up with points and sparks. It made practicing more fun.

They created another mobile app called Active Arcade and added new fun augmented reality games. Eventually they saw an opportunity to build a new gaming platform device that they would call Playground. It was a huge risk to bet the company on a hardware device, when software margins were so much better. But the team had conviction and rolled the dice, and it has paid off big time.

Now this little engine that could is sitting right next the Nintendo Switch, Sony Playstation and Microsoft XBox at Target, Walmart and Best Buy. Playground now has titles and partnerships with the NHL, Barbie, Bluey, How to Train Your Dragon, Kung Fu Panda, Care Bears, Sesame Street, Gabby’s Dollhouse, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and more. The Wall Street Journal called it the “Hottest Toy of the Year.” It’s gotten rave reviews from The New York Times, USA Today, Parents Magazine, and Polygon.

It quickly became the top selling product in Amazon’s Toys & Games category, and will sell over half a million units this holiday season. Our family loves our Playground and we’ve played with it every week since we’ve gotten it, because instead of the kids staring at a screen, the games are up and moving with the interactive games.

All from a team that started with a basketball app, who believed in their tech and had the conviction and confidence to bet on themselves. They refused to play small and be put in a box. Instead they will be selling millions of little cubes into households around the world. They are practically sold out everywhere, but hopefully you can get your hands on one before Christmas!

The Soup Dumpling

Restaurant quality frozen soup dumplings steamed to perfection in 11 minutes.

I was first introduced to Caleb Wang via the founder of Italic, Jeremy Cai. Caleb and his wife Jennifer Liao had been following my AAPI advocacy work during the pandemic as well. Caleb and Jennifer are the founders of MìLà, a Chinese frozen food company that started with soup dumplings as their first product. They sent me some samples and I was hooked. As an avid regular of Din Tai Fung restaurants in Taiwan, the fact that I could have xiao long baos at home, any time, in 11 minutes, seemed like black magic to me.

I was shocked to learn that most if not all of the major frozen Chinese food brands in America are actually owned by non-Chinese companies like Ajinomoto who owns Ling Ling dumplings, CJ Foods who owns Annie Chun’s, and Conagra who owns PF Chang’s frozen foods. There’s an estimated 40,000 Chinese restaurants in America and Martin Yan has filmed over 3,500 episodes of Yan Can Cook for PBS, and yet none of the major frozen food brands here are owned by Chinese Americans.

Caleb and Jennifer wanted to create an authentic brand of Chinese cuisine, by Chinese American entrepreneurs. I wanted to support their dream, while also helping to spread quality Chinese food to parts of the country that do not have access to it. This was an investment in not just a company, but a mission.

When we invested, they were a predominantly direct-to-consumer business with some distribution in specialty retailers. Now they can be found at Targets, Walmarts, Whole Foods, Krogers and Costcos nationwide in over 7,000 retail locations. They’ve even partnered with Marvel Superhero Simu Liu as their Chief Content Officer to promote their products. MìLà will continue expanding their products from dumplings and noodles in the future.

The Sparkling Water

La Croix but with Asian-inspired flavors.

I had first heard about Sanzo sparkling water with real Asian fruit flavors like calamansi, lychee, yuzu and mango through my good friend Andrew Chau, co-founder of Boba Guys. He connected me with Sanzo founder Sandro Roco and I loved his vision for bringing Asian-inspired sparkling water to mainstream grocery aisles. Most people had never heard of calamansi before, a citrus fruit native to the Philippines, but Sandro was changing that.

Sandro understands the importance and power of representation which is why he wanted to bring these drinks to shelves of grocery stores around the country. He even partnered with Disney to put Turning Red, Raya and the Last Dragon and Shang-Chi on Sanzo cans when they premiered. We also worked together to do a limited edition Asian Pear flavor with Jeremy Lin on the cans for when 38 at the Garden premiered on HBO Max.

These cans are sitting on my desk right now as I type this:

Sanzo can now be found in Whole Foods, Panda Express, Sprouts, Target and other retailers all across the country. Sandro is introducing people from South Carolina to Indiana and from New Mexico to Ohio, to new Asian flavors that they have never experienced before.

One of their newest investors is model and mega-influencer Chrissy Teigen who currently has over 40 million followers on Instagram.

The Petite Clothier

Stitch Fix for petite women

5’1” CEO of Short Story, Isabella Sun, cold e-mailed me after hearing my name several times talking to other Y Combinator founders and reading my post about building your own house. I also happened to work at Yahoo with one of her investors and advisors, Tim Brady. Isabella founded Short Story because as a petite Asian American woman, she was frustrated with the limited clothing options for her build. She wanted to solve the fit problem for herself, and the 33 million other petite women in America.

Since we invested, Short Story has gone from selling $1 million in petite clothing to tens of millions of dollars of inventory, including private labeled pieces. They have cornered the market in petite women’s fashion by meeting the demand of a large niche of customers.

Short Story has been the USA Today Reader’s Choice #1 Clothing Subscription Box for five years in a row. They have glowing reviews from Business Insider, Refinery 29 and Buzzfeed.

Asian women are the least likely demographic to be promoted in Corporate America, because the narrative is that they “lack leadership potential” or “have no presence”. Meanwhile, women like Isabella, Vicky Tsai, Ju Rhyu and countless others are successfully building massive businesses and debunking the false narrative with their highly effective leadership.

I have story after story of investing in underdog founders like David and the Nex team, Caleb and Jennifer, Sandro and Isabella. Over the years, I have invested time in building a community and network of seasoned founders and executives who can add tremendous value to every single company we’ve invested in. I have also curated extensive relationships with investors who can help support the growth of these companies.

Investing in early stage companies is not a numbers business, it’s a people business. You can identify all of the best founders in the world with your models, but if you can’t get on their cap table, it doesn’t matter. The founders have to choose to take money from you. Your reputation, your network and your insights are all critical in differentiating yourself from anyone else who can write a check.

I’ve poured my heart and soul into making Hyphen Capital stand for something. An investment from us is more than access to capital; it’s access to a pool of domain expertise, potential customers and partners, a community of fellow founders and future investors. Ultimately, these all are part of the story you tell to convince founders to take your money. You are responsible for crafting the story you want to tell as an investor to set yourself apart.

What is your story?

Caroline breaks down the biggest myths (like “you must be a CEO to qualify”), and explains how her first board opportunity came not from a recruiter, but from building visibility outside her day job—speaking on panels, getting known for a clear point of view, and making her expertise legible to decision-makers.

You’ll learn what boards really focus on—CEO succession, strategy, capital allocation, and risk—how board seats are commonly filled (often not through search firms), and why serving on a board is a long-term commitment where fit and governance dynamics matter as much as credentials. Caroline also shares hard-earned lessons from navigating activist shareholders, founder-controlled environments, and the fine line between giving oversight and getting too operational.

If you’ve ever wondered how to position yourself for board service—especially as a woman, person of color, or “non-traditional” candidate—this conversation is a practical, behind-the-scenes playbook on how the game is played and how to start playing it.

Born in Chongqing and raised in Toronto, Domee grew up as the child of two academics — a mother with a PhD in education and a father trained in fine arts — a combination that shaped both her discipline and her creative voice. From drawing alongside her dad in life-drawing classes as a teenager, to uploading art on DeviantArt and Tumblr, to ultimately earning a coveted Pixar story internship after an initial rejection, Domee’s path is a masterclass in resilience, craft, and self-motivation.

In our conversation, she takes us behind the curtain of Pixar’s legendary story process — from pitching boards with sound effects and temp music to collaborating with icons like Pete Docter and Ronnie Del Carmen. She shares how Bao started as a personal side project, why she nearly sabotaged her own pitch by softening its “too weird” ending, and how an unexpected nudge from Pete helped preserve one of Pixar’s most memorable, emotional story twists.

We also talk about the deeply personal roots of Turning Red — her Toronto upbringing, the overachieving Asian kid experience, the aunties, fandom obsession, and that uniquely Asian tension between love, control, and vulnerability. And Domee opens up about learning to harness her own emotions — something we’re often taught to bury — as the key to becoming a better storyteller and filmmaker.

From the surreal chaos of winning an Academy Award handed to her by Awkwafina to navigating the heartbreak and silver linings of seeing Turning Red shift from theatrical release to Disney+ during the pandemic to her reflections on being Pixar’s first solo female feature director and the importance of not being the only — Domee’s story is inspiring, hilarious, honest, and filled with wisdom for any creative, builder, or leader.

If you love storytelling, animation, creativity, Asian American identity, or just want to learn from one of the most powerful voices in filmmaking today, you’re going to love this episode.

Growing up in a largely white Texas town, Vicky endured open hostility, slurs, and isolation—sometimes even from teachers. Later, on Wall Street and in corporate America, she faced the kind of harassment, bias, and power imbalances that many women experience but rarely speak about. Yet through every chapter, she found a way to survive, adapt, and keep moving forward. As she puts it, so many of us—especially in the Asian American community—are raised to chi ku, to swallow pain, to endure, to stay small. But Vicky’s story shows what happens when you stop shrinking and start reclaiming your narrative.

Before creating one of the most beloved skincare brands in the world, Vicky was navigating careers in finance, corporate marketing, global strategy, and even acute dermatitis brought on by stress and harsh products—an affliction that ultimately pushed her to rethink beauty itself. Her path to Tatcha is filled with moments that are heartbreaking, eye-opening, and deeply human. But it’s also filled with bold choices, unexpected mentors, and the incredible perseverance that would one day lead her to build a global company rooted in healing, wellbeing, and Japanese skincare traditions.

This conversation goes far beyond entrepreneurship. It’s about trauma, identity, self-worth, and the lifelong work of reclaiming power. It’s about the invisible burdens many Asian Americans carry—and what it looks like to finally set them down. And it’s about how one woman transformed surviving into thriving, and turned her deepest wounds into the foundation of a brand that has touched millions.

Vicky is one of the bravest, most openhearted leaders I know, and I’m grateful she courageously chose to share her story here.

“The downside of speaking up is usually not as big as anyone imagines. Whether it’s asking for what you want or putting it out there that this is your ambition or “this is a new idea that I’m bouncing around”.

Oftentimes, we almost self-censor because of that downside risk, when that downside risk is actually very, very low. And so getting into that mindset is definitely a shift.”

In this episode of Hyphen Nation, Dave sits down with Faye Iosotaluno, former CEO of Tinder and one of the very few Asian American women to lead a major global tech company. Born and raised in West Covina, California to Indonesian-born, ethnically Chinese immigrant parents, Faye grew up speaking Mandarin at home, navigating multicultural environments, and learning early what it meant to balance assimilation with pride in her identity.

Faye shares how her curiosity and love of learning shaped a career that has been anything but linear. After studying both finance at Wharton and English literature at Penn—an education she credits for sharpening both her analytical and storytelling abilities—she began her career in media investment banking at Merrill Lynch before moving into corporate strategy roles at Viacom and other major media companies.

Driven by a desire to build digital-first consumer products, Faye made the unconventional jump to SoundCloud, embracing a startup environment where she could learn new industries, work globally, and help shape the future of music streaming. That leap eventually led her to Match Group, where she rose through the ranks and ultimately became CEO of Tinder, helping transform a product used by millions worldwide. As she explains, her leadership was grounded not just in operational expertise but in bringing more women’s voices into product design—because a dating platform can only thrive when it meaningfully serves women.

Faye opens up about navigating male-dominated tech environments, the importance of storytelling as a leadership tool, finding allies in the room, and learning to speak up—even when it’s uncomfortable. She shares how she eventually put her ambitions on the table, telling her manager she wanted to be considered for CEO, a pivotal moment that taught her the power of naming your goals out loud.

As one of the very few Asian American women to ever serve as CEO of a major tech company, Faye also reflects on the responsibility and privilege of being visible representation. After stepping down recently, she discusses the emotional complexity of leaving such a role—and the profound notes she received from people inspired by seeing someone who looked like them leading at the highest levels.

This conversation dives deep into identity, ambition, leadership, risk-taking, and the mindset shifts required to grow into your full potential. Faye’s path is a masterclass in how to build an unconventional career, claim space in the rooms that shape culture, and lead with both substance and humanity.

I’m done hiding, now I’m shining, like I’m born to be
Our time, no fears, no lies
That’s who we’re born to be

Waited so long to break these walls down
To wake up and feel like me
Put these patterns all in the past now
And finally live like the girl they all see

No more hiding, I’ll be shining like I’m born to be

~ Golden, KPop Demon Hunters

Last week, a Taiwanese American was the first to lead a company to be valued at over $5 trillion company, little boys and girls across the country were dressed as characters from KPop Demon Hunters as the most popular costumes for Halloween, and a Japanese pitcher carried his team to win the World Series.

NVIDIA was the first public company to break the $4 trillion mark back in July and last Wednesday became the first to crack $5 trillion. Jensen Huang was shattering all the stereotypes that Asians lack the leadership abilities to succeed. These harmful tropes are what lead to the artificially created bamboo ceiling on Asians in business, law, medicine, government and virtually every industry.

As an Asian American, it was surreal to see so many kids and adults of all ages and races on Friday, dressing up as Korean cartoon characters Rumi and the Saja Boys for Halloween. I knew that KPDH costumes would be popular, but I had no idea how popular. On Saturday, I watched Game 7 of the World Series with my sons, and told them how impossible it was that someone was pitching scoreless innings after just pitching 96 pitches in a complete game the night before. His arm should have fallen off. The Los Angeles Dodgers would not be world champions if it weren’t for Shohei Ohtani and Yoshinobu Yamamoto.

Asians are always underestimated and overlooked. They are rarely given the benefit of the doubt. Jeremy Lin faced this his entire career from being Northern California Player of the Year in high school and getting zero college scholarship offers, to being cut from the Warriors, Rockets and almost the New York Knicks, until he had his break out Linsanity game. No one believed he could do what he did, except himself. When his back was against the wall and he was about to be released from the Knicks, he played his style of basketball and dominated the league for weeks as an undrafted player. He became a global phenomenon because he shattered the perception of what people thought an Asian basketball player was capable of.

When Yoshinobu Yamamoto signed his contract with the Dodgers, he had countless haters and doubters questioning why they would pay so much for a 24 year-old unknown pitcher from Japan. They signed a 12 year contract for $325 million salary with a signing bonus of $50 million, for an average annual value of $27.1 million. This is only a couple of weeks after the Dodgers signed fellow Japanese player Shohei Ohtani for $700 million. Yamamoto started his pro baseball pitching career in Japan at the age of 19. He won the Sawamura Award (the Japanese equivalent of the Cy Young Award) in 2021, 2022, and 2023. He also won the league MVP award in each of those three seasons. But people didn’t believe that level of dominance could translate to the MLB. Now everyone is a believer and he is an MLB legend.

When Jensen Huang started NVIDIA in 1993, it was producing graphics processors for gaming. In 1996, the company was thirty days from going out of business. In 2006, they launched a software architecture that would allow developers to use the parallel processing power of these GPUs (graphic processing units) for non-graphics tasks including AI and scientific research. By the early 2010s, the NVIDIA GPU was being used by AI researchers for deep learning and now it is powering the AI revolution and generating hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue along the way.

When Maggie Kang was making KPop Demon Hunters for Sony Animation Studios, they had no idea what to make of it. They had spent $100 million in production budget to make the feature film. They didn’t understand the appeal and sold the distribution rights to Netflix for a $20 million premium (on top of the cost of production). Sony thought the deal “made sense” at the time, and that they dodged a bullet for this obscure animated musical fantasy movie about a Korean girl band saving the world from demons. They didn’t think that it would be fit for theatrical release. One weekend of the sing-along version on 1,700 screens in movie theaters paid back that $20 million. It is the most watched film on Netflix in history, with over 325 million views and counting after 91 days. The KPop Demon Hunters franchise has original IP worth billions of value to Netflix from sequels to merchandising. Even they weren’t prepared for the demand of Halloween costumes, so knockoff manufacturers capitalized on them being caught off guard.

The model minority myth is that we are successful, when in reality it means we are obedient hard workers who rarely complain or ask for promotions. We supposedly make good workhorses but not good racehorses. We are automatically seen as background characters, not main characters. Otherwise we make great sidekicks or punchlines like Short Round or Long Duk Dong. You’ll still rarely see Asians as the main lead in a romantic movie. You can’t name a movie with an Asian American President, because that would be too much of a stretch. The only time you do see one is when we make the movies ourselves, like Bruce Lee did or Jon Chu did with Crazy Rich Asians. Otherwise, we’re “not marketable enough” or don’t have “mass appeal.”

Growing up, we always dealt with being othered and treated like foreigners in our own homes. Mocked for our features (below is Houston Astros Yuri Guriel mocking pitcher Yu Darvish after hitting a home run), languages and food. There is no other physical gesture I can think of that is used to mock another race than this one. So unless you’re Asian, you don’t know what this feels like as a kid. People refuse to believe that this still happens today, but I assure you it does. I grew up in the 80s seeing racist gestures like this, coupled with “ching chongs”. Just last fall, a girl no older than 10 said “ching chong” to me behind my back at a luxury vacation resort in Carmel, California. Meanwhile our kids today are still dealing with this lazy and ignorant racist behavior.

A friend sent this screencap of Guriel to me on Saturday, because he was so proud of what Yamamoto and Ohtani were doing on the world stage. He is a Korean American who grew up in Tennessee where kids made this gesture to him all the time. His sons grew up in New York and they got it too. In 2008, the Spanish Olympic basketball team took a team photo like this for the Beijing Olympics. In August 2021, the official social media account for the Juventus Women’s team posted a photograph of a player, Cecilia Salvai, making a racist “slant-eyed” gesture towards Asian people. Just last October, former world No. 2 tennis player Paula Badosa has apologized after a photo was shared online that showed her pulling her eyes back with chopsticks while playing tournaments in China.

People say it’s just a joke or to ignore it and rise above. But imagine being a kid, minding your own business and an adult mocks you with this gesture. How do you think that might feel for the confused child? It makes them feel ashamed of the way they look. It makes them feel like they are somehow less than for being different. It makes them feel like an outsider and unsafe. At my age, I can say or do something to the bigot, but a child is powerless in that situation. They are left feeling dehumanized and traumatized. That trauma can lead to a lifetime of feeling like they don’t belong.

Even calling out racism towards Asians is frowned upon by some. People will say, “Asians don’t have it as bad as others,” as if this sort of behavior isn’t worthy of calling out. Do not dismiss our pain as if it is somehow not real or hurtful. And don’t ever let anyone gaslight you or invalidate your feelings. We aren’t playing in the oppression olympics. We need to stand up to hateful behavior no matter who it is targeted at, because it is wrong, not because of who the target is.

As Asians, we need to be unafraid to call out unacceptable behavior in any venue, and not silently accept it. Many of our cultures pride ourselves in enduring suffering and “eating bitterness”, which is why we tolerate so much of this nonsense. But that is exactly what makes us easy targets, because people assume we won’t fight back. Don’t allow others to tell you what you can and can’t speak up about. Ignore the bogeyman telling you that you’ll be in trouble if you say something. You have agency in every situation, and you can choose to be a victim or you can choose to defend yourself.

After being treated like outsiders, workhorses, and background characters, Asians in America are having our moment to shine at the top of the business, entertainment and sports worlds. I have no doubt that we will continue to have more weeks like last week in the future, especially if we refuse to allow others to bring us down or hold us back. Ignore the haters and doubters, because they are ignorant losers who only live to tear down others. Be unapologetically yourself.

Growing up, we saw kids making fun of us by pulling back their eyes and mocking our languages, and now they are proudly dressing up as Rumi and Shohei for Halloween and singing lyrics in Korean. We’re not looking back.

Asian Americans are told that they lack leadership qualities, and yet Jensen Huang just led NVIDIA to become the first company worth $5 trillion dollars in world history.

I just recorded a podcast interview with Vicky Tsai, CEO and founder of TATCHA who sold to Unilever for $500 million in 2019. Despite graduating from Wellesley and Harvard Business School and winning awards at Starbucks for her work, she continued to receive performance reviews from multiple managers that said she, “Meets Expectations” and “Lacks Leadership Potential.” When she would push back for more detail, they rarely had a response. She was even told that she wasn’t the right leader by her private equity investor, so she stepped down as CEO of her own company. The new leadership they brought in failed miserably and she was brought back eventually. Even when she returned to Harvard Business School to discuss the case study on Tatcha with a class, a male student had the nerve to suggest that maybe they were right. This is AFTER she successfully built and sold her company for half a billion dollars! But her climb to the top was far from easy.

Throughout her career she was gaslit to believe that she might not be a good leader, even after she proved herself time and time again. People even took credit for her work, including investors who lied and said they were operators that had a big part in the success of Tatcha. She had never even heard about the “bamboo ceiling” concept until 2021.

So many Asian Americans struggle with the disconnect of their stellar work and results, yet being told they aren’t exceeding expectations or good leaders. They start to internalize this negative feedback and self-doubt inevitably creeps in. My hope is that by sharing stories like Jensen’s and Vicky’s, that the false narrative that is being told by others is drowned out by the truth.

You don’t need the validation or praise of your managers to know if you’re a good leader or not. Many of these managers got to their positions in spite of their mediocrity, but because they knew how to navigate corporate politics or had the right connections, not because of merit. If your instinct is that they aren’t a strong leader, why should you take their feedback seriously? We’ve been so programmed to seek the approval of our parents and teachers since we were young, that we automatically assume our “superiors” know better. Ignore the haters like Vicky and Jensen did, and forge your own path.

That’s why I started Hyphen Capital, because I wanted to be on the underdogs who were told they weren’t leadership material. I wanted us to write our own stories, and not let them be written by others. Instead of banging our heads against bamboo ceilings, I wanted to invest in building our own houses. Houses like NVIDIA and Tatcha. You can build the ceiling as high as you want in your own house. In the case of Nvidia, you don’t have to build a ceiling at all.

If you are all too familiar with performance reviews like these, and believe they don’t fairly represent you, push back and say something. If you’re not satisfied with the answer, then leave, because they don’t see you and likely never will. Go somewhere you will be valued and not used. Don’t allow yourself to be taken advantage of. Go somewhere with a higher ceiling, where you see people who look like you at the top. Or better yet, go and build your own house with no ceilings.

We talk about growing up in the South as the daughter of Taiwanese immigrants and not really embracing her Asian identity until she was in college at the University of Virginia. She has literally run human resources for the biggest companies in Atlanta from The Weather Channel to Turner (Turner Broadcasting System, Inc) to Equifax to the Blank Family which owns the Atlanta Falcons, Atlanta United FC, Mercedes-Benz Stadium, PGA Superstores. Now she runs human resources for Coca-Cola worldwide.

We get into breaking the bamboo ceiling. We also discuss curiosity, asking for help, learning the right kind of mistakes, and the power of real networking and results-driven resumes. This one is packed with insightful advice from someone who has hired top executives from around the world.

In our conversation, Hans shares his journey from growing up in Taiwan and immigrating to California at 13, to navigating Wall Street, Asia’s tech boom, and ultimately shaping Silicon Valley as a global investor. We dive into what he looks for in founders, how he’s navigated being an Asian American leader in venture capital, and why conviction, resilience, and community matter more than ever.

When I was in preschool, my mom and dad would take me to the Woodbridge Mall in New Jersey. I vividly remember one day, we were waiting in line to ride the train ride, when a family cut in front of us. I was so confused why they acted like they didn’t see everyone else in line including us, as if we weren’t there. My dad started to yell at them and cause a scene. I remember that feeling of embarrassment when we started drawing attention from passersby. My mom quickly dragged me to the nearby Kay Bee Toy store to shield me from the scene my dad was causing. The family eventually left after being called out, and the people in line behind us thanked my dad for saying something. My dad modeled leadership and agency for me at a very young age: Even though it might not be comfortable, you should always speak up and do the right thing for yourself and for others.

I fondly remember another day with my father when I was eleven years-old. We were sitting in the family room looking at the newest school ranking issue of the U.S. News and World Report. My dad asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up as we flipped through the lists of graduate schools. I said I couldn’t stand the sight of blood or needles, so medical school wasn’t an option. He didn’t trust lawyers so that ruled out law school. My dad was an engineer, so I asked him about engineering. He told me engineers always have a boss, so you always have to do what someone else tells you to do, which he wasn’t a fan of. So we flipped the page to top business schools, and my eyes lit up, because I thought I could be good at business. He smiled and agreed, so we looked through the list together. The number one business school in the world at the time was Stanford. I told him that someday I would go there and get my MBA.

I don’t think most sixth graders know how hard it is to get into Stanford for business school. If I had done more due diligence then, I would have known that at less than 7% acceptance rate, it was the hardest business school in the world to apply to. But it was too late for that, I had already set my goal ridiculously high.

I would go on to get my undergraduate degree in business at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School. I concentrated in finance and strategic management and got my first job as a management consultant with Deloitte Consulting in San Francisco after graduation. I was in Silicon Valley during the dot.com boom, so it was hard not to be allured by all the tech companies that were garnering the attention of the world. I decided to take the leap and join Yahoo working as a product manager on the Yahoo Finance team. I was working on a product that all my college classmates used every day. I was also working for a company co-founded by a fellow Taiwanese American, Jerry Yang. I hadn’t realized how inspiring it would be to see someone who looked like me, starting and running one of the hottest companies in Silicon Valley. I loved my time at Yahoo. To this day, it is still one of the best working experiences of my life.

For Memorial Day Weekend in 2001, I met up with my family for vacation in Las Vegas. After taking in dinner and a Cirque Du Soleil show, my father started not feeling well, so we went back to our hotel room. That night he couldn’t sleep comfortably, so we decided to drive back to Los Angeles early the next day to see family. Things had taken a turn for the worst, so we took him to the hospital. It turns out he had a massive heart attack the night before and that they needed to perform surgery, but it was too late. Within 24 hours of enjoying a rare family vacation bringing together my sister from college in Michigan, my parents from New Jersey and me from San Francisco, my dad was suddenly gone.

I’ll never forget that summer, talking to my mom on the phone from my cubicle in Sunnyvale and hearing her break down into tears every single day. Even though I loved my job at Yahoo and my life in California, I knew I needed to move back East to take care of her. I interviewed for jobs in New York and got an offer from Sony by August. The morning of September 11, 2001, my roommate woke me up and we watched a plane crash into the World Trade Center. My uncle who worked for Cantor Fitzgerald in the North Tower was late to work that day while most of his colleagues (658 of them) perished. The next few weeks were a blur of confusion. I wasn’t sure if Sony would rescind the job offer because New York was in disarray, but I had already given notice and my mom needed me. Thankfully, I still had the job and moved to New York.

That fall, I applied to business school. It was common knowledge that if you were accepted to Stanford, the director of admissions would personally call you to tell you the news. I was constantly checking the Business Week forums to see when calls were going out. The cold December day someone first posted that they got a call, was probably one of the longest days of my life. More and more people posted that they got the call from Derrick Bolton, in his first year as the new director of admissions. I was despondent that I hadn’t heard anything by the end of the work day, so I decided to go see a movie by myself to distract me. I went to see Black Hawk Down, a movie about a disastrous failed rescue mission in Somalia. Needless to say, it did not give me much more hope. By then it was 11pm and I had pretty much accepted that it wasn’t meant to be, when my mom called and said someone from Stanford reached out. I had forgotten that I had applied with my home number in New Jersey, because I didn’t have a New York address yet when I applied! She told me she asked the man if this meant I was going back to California, and the nice man on the phone said he “hoped so” and would call me later. Before midnight, I got the call from Derrick and my life forever was changed.

I wished my dad was around to see me graduate from Stanford with my MBA. I wanted so much for him to be proud of me for achieving the seemingly impossible goal we talked about 17 years prior. My dad never told me he was proud of me growing up, but I just chalked it up to Asian culture. The only time I ever saw him cry was finding a wet napkin on the table after he found out my grandmother had passed away, because he rarely shared much about his feelings with us.

Years after getting my MBA, I was shooting hoops with his best friend from college, who lived next door to us. He told me that my dad would always tell him how proud he was of me, even though he never said it to me. I had felt like I was robbed of that chance when he was taken from me at such a young age, but he had been proud of me all along.

Fast forward to this week, I am humbled and honored to be recognized by the Stanford Graduate School of Business as one of 100 out of nearly 34,000 alumni to be named a Centennial Alumni Catalyst, commemorating the school’s 100-year legacy of principled leadership and innovation.

GSB Centennial Alumni Catalysts are recipients of the school’s first peer-to-peer recognition program. This initiative shines a spotlight on alumni whose peers—friends, classmates, and fellow graduates—nominated them for their extraordinary contributions. Each honoree exemplifies the commitment of the GSB community to change lives, change organizations, and change the world.

The Stanford GSB community has been such an integral part of my journey, so to be acknowledged by my fellow alumni peers this way is incredibly meaningful. I am so grateful to be a part of this family.

I know my dad hasn’t been around to see most of the work and advocacy I’ve been doing over the past several years, but I know he’s proud that I followed his example all those years ago by speaking up for myself and for others.

In this conversation, we dive into the real rules of power: why Asian Americans in particular often hit the bamboo ceiling, and what it actually takes to rise and lead effectively. Jeff and I talk about why waiting for permission is a trap, why imposter syndrome is just another excuse, and how power can be used not only to advance yourself but to do good for others.

This is a candid look at the game behind the game — with stories from Jeff’s decades of teaching and research, and personal reflections on how Asian Americans can claim more influence in business and society.

As Professor Pfeffer points out, “Spend money on yourself. What’s more important to invest than your own career and your own life?” Executive coaching can unlock your full potential and take your career to the next level. Most of the time, we’re the ones holding ourselves back. That’s why we launched the Asian Leadership Center to help Asian American executives find the right coaches that resonate with their shared experiences and cultural upbringing (and the baggage that comes along with it). To learn more visit the Asian Leadership Center at Corporate Edge.

Asian Leadership Center

Full Transcript

Dave Lu (00:01.996)

Today's guest is Professor Jeffrey Pfeffer from the Stanford School of Business, where I graduated from. Most of us feel, grow up believing that you work hard, keep your head down and deliver results. Success will naturally follow, but my guest today argues that's one of the biggest myths in business. Professor Pfeffer has spent decades studying power and leadership and his research shows that visibility, influence and networks matter far more than raw performance. In our conversation, we're gonna break down the real rules of power and why so many professionals, especially Asian Americans, hit bamboo ceilings and what it takes to rise and lead effectively. This is candid look at the game behind the game.

So thank you, Professor Jeffrey, for being with us.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (00:44.472)

Dave, it's a pleasure to be with you. You know I'm a big fan of you and personally, I'm a huge fan of what you're trying to do to advance the Asian American community. There is of course a bamboo ceiling, as documented by the Ascend Foundation. And I, to the extent that I can do anything to help people overcome that ceiling, I'm thrilled to be involved in that project.

Dave Lu (01:10.444)

And you have been, mean, Jeff, you've spent your time volunteering with Asian Leadership Summits. And we had a fireside chat at the GSB Asian Alumni Conference. You've been such a great supporter and even your podcasts. You've featured many friends and our mutual friends Deb Liu and others that you've highlighted and supported their stories on. So thank you for that, for being an ally and for being so just giving of your time to our community.

You don't have to honestly care about it, you do. So thank you for that.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:42.984)

It's my pleasure.

Dave Lu (01:44.888)

So let's dive right into it. You've written books on power, both Seven Rules of Power, Power. You've taught this class for how many years now?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:55.968)

You don't want to know. So when I came to Stanford as a full professor in the year 1979, dinosaurs were roaming the earth or whatever. In any event, I was asked to develop an elective based upon research that I had been doing on power. And so I decided to develop an elective on power for the simple reason that power is an important topic, but that no one was actually teaching about it.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (02:25.632)

There was not an elective. That was the same year, believe it or not, by accident or coincidence, that John Cotter began teaching his power and influence elective at Harvard Business School. And at that time, these were the first two electives on power, I think, taught anywhere in the world. Nobody was talking about power.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (02:43.2)

And it was, like many of the things I've studied, an important phenomenon that was underexplored and undertook. And it was important, I thought, for people to understand. So I began teaching this class in 1979. I have not taught it continuously. For a while, I taught human resource management in the core course of organizational behavior. And my colleague, late Gene Webb, and my retired colleague, Rod Kramer, taught power. But then when I started teaching it again, I decided that I would do that.

for the rest of my career. And of course, I don't intend to retire. So who knows how long this will go on.

Dave Lu (03:19.726)

Yeah, I mean, I've seen the syllabus for the class. did not get to take the class while I was in school. I very much regret that, but I'm glad we're friends now talking about it. But I mean, you say like, you people often think of power as a dirty word with negative connotations and you say, Hey, this class might not be for you and bold letters. This class might not be for everyone because I'm going to say things that'll make you uncomfortable. And you talk about power in a way that, you you say, this is how power has been.

forever, it currently is and will always be. And lot of people don't want to hear that because they think that it's often perceived as self-serving or selfish and has negative connotations. But most people don't really think about power being used for good and how it can help others and make positive impact as well.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (04:05.723)

Well, you the model of GSB, you know, Dave, is change lives, change organizations, change the world. And if you're going to change anything, you need influence. Because if change were going to happen without influence, it would have happened already. So, you know, I mean, there is a lot of inertia in social systems. There's a lot of inertia in organizations. There's a lot of inertia in society. And so to take an example near and dear to your heart, if Asian Americans

are going to do better in their careers. if the bamboo ceiling is going to be taken down or destroyed or penetrated or whatever, it's going to require influence to do that.

Dave Lu (04:46.38)

Yeah. No, I mean, and that's something that we need to learn. And there's a lot of kind of cultural upbringing and baggage that we have that keeps us from doing that. You talk about having agency and, you know, agentic behavior, how important that is. I think that's not something that we grew up being told we could have because a lot of our parents decided what we're supposed to be when we grew up and so, and what we're allowed to do. And a lot of that was asking for permission and, kind of

behaving by the rules. so a lot of, and there's scarcity mindset that gives us that mentality because our parents don't want us to kind of, when they came over, they didn't want to risk anything because they want to make sure that they were, you know, had safety, security. And, you know, that was what they cared about most. And that's what they prioritized. But I mean, in your books, you talk about power in ways that, you know, I think it's, and again, I've written about you multiple times and everyone keeps buying your books. You know, it's good, good, good for you, but they're...

They say how much it's moved them because they haven't thought about power in this way. But a lot of the things that we grew up with, you know, that you put as your rules of power, of getting out of your own way, breaking rules, you know, showing up in a powerful fashion, building a personal brand of self-promotion. These are things that we do not grow up being, we're not grown up to think like. And so they're antithetical to our culture. I mean, how have you, I know you didn't write this in the context of Asians, but.

In your conversations with a lot of Asian American leaders, have you seen that or do you find that a lot of people have struggled getting through this and how have they broken through?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (06:21.024)

Well, I think everybody has struggles breaking through it, as you probably know or may not know. I don't know what you know and don't know. I recently released a master class on Power. Yeah. And so, know, so, you know, so we we've taken my teaching on Power from 10 weeks to the eight week online version. And now we're in the one hour version with with master class is basically not much more than an hour. And my sense is from reading the responses are the things that people have sent to me on LinkedIn. I think this is not natural for not only for Asian Americans, I think it's not natural for many people. I think we want to believe that the world is a just and fair place and that good work will get rewarded in and of and by itself and you don't have to do anything except keep your head down. We're taught early on, follow the rules. I think

Dave Lu (06:59.523)

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (07:16.448)

At least when I went to school, if I can remember back that far, to elementary school and, you know, even high school, but certainly in elementary school, the first thing that you learn is to follow the rules. You know, the teacher tells you, sit in your desk, Dave, you're supposed to sit in your desk. You know, it's time for recess. OK, now we get to go outside and play. It's time to study reading. It's time to study math.

We are going to tell you what to do. That school, and there's actually been research on this, the school is mostly about learning to fit in and learning to conform. And so it's not just Asian Americans who I think are taught this. I think everybody's taught this. You know, sometimes I say to people, I'm trying to picture the little boy, Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, you know, following the rules and being told you can't do this or you can't do that. I think the people who create

amazing things in this world are people who do not accept the barriers that have been placed in front of them. I'm sure that has been true in your own career. As you built a great career in technology and in venture capital, I'm sure people gave you all kinds of...

Dave Lu (08:19.502)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (08:30.674)

rules about what you could and couldn't do and you can't go out on your own and there too many other venture capital firms and who wants a venture capital firm focused on the Asian American community and blah, blah, blah. And you, course, you, of course, said, I am not going to accept the limits that other people set for me. And that is fundamentally what this is about, not accepting limits that other people impose.

Dave Lu (08:54.21)

I mean, it's definitely true that I grew up thinking I had to ask permission for everything, but realizing that I have to take it myself. I can't wait for someone else to give it to me. Because I think a lot of us have been raised to think, you have to always ask permission. Don't assume you can just grab something. Like, well, if you don't, you might not get it. Because I mean, it's not just survival. It's just actually this is how you gain power and influence.

A lot that is getting out of our own way and getting out our own heads because we always make, apologize for everything. I mean, this was an anecdote from last year. I went to your class and you asked me to introduce myself. And I was, mean, I don't know. I made myself seem small. I was like, no, you know, I did this thing. It's not a big deal. And you just, you you reprimanded me for the whole class saying, don't do that. So there's a learning moment. There's a teaching moment right in front of me.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (09:46.368)

Yeah, that's exactly right. And because look, I mean, you have you put together amazing dinners that you've been kind enough to invite me to a few of you put together an amazing community, you put together an amazing firm, you've had an amazing career. And so, you know, you're you're sitting in on my class. So when I call on you, should you should at least acknowledge what the hell you've done because because you've done it. I mean, it's not like you've made it's not like you made stuff up. Many people.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (10:16.378)

I mean, many people take credit for stuff they didn't do. You didn't want to take credit for stuff that you actually had done.

Dave Lu (10:18.702)

For those listening. I'm very red right now. I'm not watching, but yes, no, it's true. I think that was it's I mean, being put in the spotlight is not something that I've always been comfortable with. And even, know, public speaking, I didn't always love it because I cared too much about what other people thought of me. But then I realized more and more I should not care about what other people think of me because the one thing in my 40s

Like maybe in my late 30s I realized like the more I realized how little people actually think of you, like then you realize it doesn't matter because they spend time, they have their own lives to worry about. So stop worrying about what other people think. But it's, I mean, it very much was, you know, in my, I started my first company at 30, I had realized how much of my self identity had been built up in the name brands that I, you know, my Stanford GSB degree working at Yahoo, eBay going to, you know,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (10:54.228)

That's... Yeah.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (11:01.31)

Yep.

Dave Lu (11:17.934)

an Ivy League school, all these things are all hell of that. And then I was starting a company with no name, no one ever heard of, and it just made me feel really small. And then that gave me a thick skin to realize I don't care what these other people think because I'm building my own thing. And that's, think that was very liberating for me. And honestly, I think we grew up being told that everything is a meritocracy, but that's just BS because that's not the case. I give talks.

at court companies and I could tell young people in college and high school that I talk to, you know, it doesn't matter how good your work is if no one sees it. If you don't have relationships with the people that are going to make a decision about promoting you, you're never going to promoted because you know, your work is great. But if they don't see it or know that it was you, someone else will probably take credit for it. What are your thoughts on kind of meritocracy? And because I mean, I imagine you've studied cultures and

abroad in Asia and Europe and, know, wherever else. And I mean, are those societies actually more meritocratic? Cause some people will say, you know, I w took Jeff's class at Stanford and I went to Hong Kong and I tried the stuff there and it did not work out very well. And so I'm like, I don't know, maybe it was different, but do you find that in different cultures? Like this is more applicable to Western society.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (12:34.952)

No. So one year I used to my students in my power class a group project. I don't anymore. And so a group of actually Asian students said this won't work in Asia. And I said, well, why don't you make a group project on somebody in Asia and go and see if it actually works. And they came back and they said, well, you know, you were actually right. It works. It works the same everywhere.

Dave Lu (12:53.326)

Yeah, mean, I'm pretty sure Jack Ma did not follow the rules and he did a lot of the followed a lot of your rules and that's how he became Jack Ma.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (13:03.872)

that is correct. I mean, every society puts constraints on people and every industry has a set of conventional wisdom, set of conventional beliefs. And the people who, when Jeff Bezos began selling books online and...

you know, the Amazon online marketplace, think I, sure, everybody told them this was insane. And, you know, particularly with free shipping and all this other stuff, you know, I mean, there is a conventional way of doing things. When you think about it, you know, in strategy, if I told you, you were going to start a company, what strategy should you use? You would probably provide, you would probably...

Jeffrey Pfeffer (13:50.57)

pursue a strategy of differentiation. And when I started a grocery store, I'm not going to do it the same as every other grocery store because what the hell, how is that going to give me any comparative advantage? And so, you know, Whole Foods broke the rules about how to succeed in the grocery business. Southwest Airlines broke the rules about how to succeed in the airline business. The conventional wisdom was hub and spoke, you know.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (14:13.472)

the whole of the Southwest understood that people bought a ticket to get from one place to the other. And when you were the number 23 in line to take off in Dallas and waiting to take off, nobody was making any money. Not only were you aggravated, but nobody was making any money because I did not sell you a ticket that said, we're going to charge you extra for getting to sit for 45 minutes waiting to take off. And so the idea that, and my friend, the famous George Zimmer.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (14:41.052)

reinvented, you know, selling K.W.I.D. men's clothing. Unfortunately, his business is now bankrupt because they threw him out. in any event, know, I think I think you that innovation comes from doing things differently and innovation and human beings career is again very much thinking about how do I how do I succeed? How do I play to my strengths to use the gallop title of the Gallup book? How do I?

How do I make the most of the opportunities that I've been given? And to use a phrase that you've used already several times in this conversation, not sit around and wait. Don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Don't wait for someone to give you permission because they probably won't.

Dave Lu (15:24.329)

Mm-hmm. Yep. I always say it's like, if you're waiting for someone to give you permission, you're basically, you know, giving yourself an excuse to fail or give up because you're assuming that someone else is gonna allow you to do something and that never works. So what are your thoughts? I've always wondered, you know, growing up in Asian house and we're often afraid of, you know, taking risks or making mistakes because, you know, they grow up in, our parents in that generation grow up,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (15:36.904)

Yep. Yep.

Dave Lu (15:50.511)

in a society where one exam determines the rest of your future and if you get a 95, that's not good enough. So making those mistakes can be costly, but we often compare ourselves to others because that's what our parents did to us. But we then end up tending to doubt ourselves a lot more even when we're completely competent and capable, but just lack that confidence. What are your thoughts on that imposter syndrome? I mean, do you have any advice on how to handle imposter syndrome?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (16:16.788)

Well, know, because attitude, because attitudes follow behavior. If you want to get over imposter syndrome, stop acting like an imposter. So if you if you act with confidence, I suspect that this will resonate very well with you to the extent that I know you. If you act like you're confident over time, you will in fact feel more confident.

Dave Lu (16:33.518)

Mm-hmm.

Dave Lu (16:39.832)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it is true. I've experienced that myself.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (16:44.672)

Of course. So if you want to get over imposter syndrome, stop acting like an imposter. Stop thinking of yourself as an imposter. That's simple. Look at the people around you. I mean, we have all kinds of people in high-level positions. They aren't any better than anybody else. They've mostly just been bolder.

Dave Lu (16:53.506)

That simple? That's true.

Dave Lu (17:06.958)

That's it.

Yeah, I mean, we see the government today, we see a lot of people who are not more competent and they're very bold and very, very confident. We know they're imposters, but they don't act like it. They don't, they don't think they are. So, you know, I often get from comments from folks who disagree with me saying, Dave, why do you blame Asians for being the way we are? This is how we learn why we have to change our culture versus

Jeffrey Pfeffer (17:14.334)

Yep. Yep. Yep.

No, that's exactly right.

Dave Lu (17:38.189)

Like why shouldn't the system change for us? And I tell them like, good luck with that. Like this is not going to change for you. Like the only chance you have in real, the real world is if you learn to play the game the way it's meant to play. And I mean, whether we like it or not, this is not just for us. Like you said, it's for everyone. have to, the only way to succeed is to stand out and to be more self-promotional, to break more rules, to do all these things. But you know, a lot of people have criticized saying, you know,

Why are we forced to change? Why aren't other people forced to change? What are your thoughts on that?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (18:10.078)

Well, you know, what they're saying is that life isn't fair, to which I would say that's exactly right. Life isn't fair. But, you know, you know, if you've got to play football, you got to play by the football rules. You could say, you know, I don't like football. People who play football often wind up with brain injuries. People who play football often wind up with arthritis, you know, after after they've after their active careers are finished. People who play football get injured. It's a contact sport.

You don't have to play football. If you're going to play football, you're going to have to play by the rules of football. If you're going to play soccer, you're going to play by the rules of soccer. If you're going to play basketball, you're going to play by the rules of basketball. You can choose the game you're going to play. But once you're in that game, particularly up until the point at which you have the power to change those rules, you have to play by those rules.

Dave Lu (19:05.134)

Yeah, that's true. If you're, if you're a hundred pounds and you want to play football, you know, good luck, they're not going to change the game for you. You'll probably get crushed and injured. You're too small. Yeah. Um, so you've, you've written kind of a lot about power and in many ways, but like, what are kind of practical steps someone can take earlier on their career? Cause I get a lot of folks who listen to me that are very junior, like analysts and associates, you know, they're, they're, you know,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (19:12.628)

That's exactly right.

Dave Lu (19:34.323)

minions basically. mean, can you do believe that you can build power as someone so young in a large organization?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (19:41.044)

You have to start building power so young in that organization. As everybody listening to you knows, there are fewer positions at the top than at the bottom. And therefore, as soon as you enter, whether we're talking about a management consulting firm or investment banking firm or commercial real estate firm or law firm or an accounting firm or whatever kind of organization you're working in, there are relatively few.

You know, not every management consultant is going to make partner. Not every management consultant is going to even be made manager. Not every accountant is going to be made a partner. Not every consultant, et cetera, et cetera. And so therefore, you have to begin to do something to stand out. Basically, I would not say on day one. I would say you have to do something to stand out even before you get.

to your first job. So, you know, one of the cases I teach is my friend, Keith Farazzi, who wrote the book Never Eat Alone and who's got your back and is a marketing brand building guru. You know, when he was graduating from Harvard Business School.

He was being recruited by McKinsey and was recruited by Deloitte Consulting. And he said to the people at Deloitte, if you want me to come to work for you, I have to be able to have dinner with your CEO, Pat Locanto, once a year. That was a bold move. Not everybody would have done that. But he understood that if he was going to succeed in that organization, people senior in that organization had to know who the hell he was amongst all these first-year consultants.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (21:17.0)

And so he, his career has been bold from the beginning.

Dave Lu (21:22.106)

Yeah, mean, to power helps you gain power. I've learned that for sure. Like, you know, the relationships I've built, the network I've built, it definitely kind of, you, if you aren't close to power, you, can't get power. and so you have to find ways and get creative about it. Do you have any stories? I mean, you have so many stories, but do you have any specific stories of kind of creative ways that people have gotten proximity to power? Cause people always ask me like, Dave, I don't have the same powerful, famous, whatever friends that you do. I don't know how to get that.

And I often say, like.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (21:52.34)

Well, know, but Dave, I'm sure your answer is, when I began, I didn't have the same powerful friends that I do. You know, I mean, everybody would look at you, they look at you today and, you know, and the dinners that you put together and the people that you have access to. But that was not you 20 years ago. That was not you 25 years ago. It's the same story I tell about my friend Jason Calacanis, you know, the king of, you know, the...

Jeffrey Pfeffer (22:21.136)

early stage investing, angel investing, et cetera. You know, I tell him when he comes to my class, say, Jason Calacanis is an overnight success built over 25 years. I mean, and you are an overnight success built over the years and years that you have spent basically meeting people, talking to people, building your career, building your skills. And so it is not really fair. It's not reasonable, it's not sensible for somebody to see Dave

Jeffrey Pfeffer (22:51.264)

you know, in your current stage and say, oh, I'm not that. Well, you weren't that at one point either. And so the question would be, not I'm not you, of course I'm not you. How did you get there? And what can I do that you did? How can I learn from your career path? kind of what can I learn from where you are today?

Dave Lu (23:13.272)

Yeah. I mean, I would say that a lot of power I had did not come from staying on rails or in a track or a path. was each time it created something out of nothing is when I gained, think more, influence and power. If there was a community that needed to be built, I did that. And then people came and they're like, I get credit for that. It's like Jason, when he started the paper and had the top 100 list and all the things that he did, he created something out of nothing. And that hustle and that

When someone, when other people need something and then you're the ones who provides it for them, you create that whatever that might be community or, you know, source of information, people find power that I keep seeing now that I've done that a few times over from the Wall Street Journal letter to the Asian American founders committee and others. I see that on LinkedIn from other friends who've, you know, started an AI community. I'm like, they're gaining power or they're having conferences or they set up their own. Like it didn't exist before, but they started in.

AI conference or a podcast, Lenny, Lenny, Rachitsky, you started the, you know, AI like lean, like the product podcast, but they've gained so much power and influence because they provided something that didn't exist before. And people, get credit for that. It's if you wait for someone to give it, if you try to get, know, try to get the credit from someone and wait for it, it doesn't happen, but they didn't wait. They just created something out of nothing. And then they get a tribute. The attribution goes to them. So then they get the credit and the power that goes along with it. So.

I think it's a lot of it is creating something out of nothing that most people don't because of inertia or whatever it is, they don't bother trying to do. But Jason's story was that multiple times again and again. So and that was the class that I walked I came in on that I sat in on was Jason's class that he was a guest in and in your in your lecture. So it's it's funny. So I know you say it's a lot, but you have certain thoughts about

leadership writing from many people. You know, you don't hold back on your thoughts on some of these writers who talk about, you know, leading with humility and authenticity and servant leadership and that, you know, all these, you know, terms that we hear a lot about on Instagram or TikToks and can you share your thoughts about a lot of these folks who write about leadership?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (25:31.346)

Well, you know, I think they... So the problem with the leadership literature is that it's very much like Sunday school, is very much about how people think the world should be rather than how it is. And, you know, and I think there is obviously a place for, you know, for church and for religion, for religious celebration and for people to, you know...

to teach many of the parables of the New and Old Testament. But that is not necessarily how the world works. so therefore, you know, it's not very useful advice. You have to distinguish from what is, from what ought to be.

Dave Lu (26:17.964)

And so, yeah, I mean, I think people have an idealized perception of what leaders should be and, you know, what the actual leaders that rise to the top do and are. And I won't name names, Simon Sinek and others that, the thoughts, but I mean, I do feel like we see a lot of things that, you know, I think there's, it makes sense in our mind when we hear that, like, yeah, you know, people will follow that, but then, you know, that, that isn't the case. But.

I mean, do you feel like that there is necessarily only one archetype of, of leader that, you know, I think there's a perception that a leader has to be, you know, a certain way. you find that there are many exceptions that in your, in your research, you know, that, cause there are, yeah.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (27:00.348)

Of course, of course. And also, you know, it's interesting. So Jim Collins wrote Good to Grade and Built to Last, co-authored of Good to Grade and Built to Last, did an endorsement for my power book, Power Why Some People Have It and Others Don't. And somebody said, how did you get him to do the endorsement? I said to him, Jim, you know, because he's written a lot about level five readers, know, modesty.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (27:28.264)

And I said to Jim, who knows these people very well, I said, were they modest on the way to the top? He said, no. He said, so oftentimes, the CEOs who are one way or claim to be one way when they get to the top of the organization aren't that way on the way up. So I think once you have power,

You can behave differently than what you need to do on your climb to power. I think that's for sure. And also, I think, you know, many people tell stories. once you become a famous, fancy CEO, you hire a ghostwriter, you write a book, and you basically, you know, tell the world what you want the world to believe about you, which is not necessarily the truth. So I will tell the story because I will name names because of course I'm completely...

politically incorrect. So some years ago, I served on the board of a company. I had a fellow board member who served actually on the audit committee with me, who at the time was working for Medtronic. And around that time, Bill George and my friend Pete Simms brought out the book True North, which talks about Bill George teaches now as a lecturer at Harvard Business School.

Dave Lu (28:23.835)

You

Jeffrey Pfeffer (28:53.296)

on leadership. So I said to her, I said to her, you know, I was, I guess more naive than I am today. Whatever I said to her, said, wow. I said, you know, you know, the book had just come out. I said, I assume you've read True North. She said, absolutely. I said, wow, what is it like to work for Bill George? She said, the first thing I could tell you is that nothing like True North.

Dave Lu (29:19.042)

Hahaha!

Jeffrey Pfeffer (29:20.704)

I mean, people tell stories. People ask me why I don't go to the View from the Top at Stanford where we bring in these CEOs. I if I want fiction, I'll go watch a good movie. I don't need hear some CEO tell some story about how they want the world to perceive them.

Dave Lu (29:38.702)

That's hilarious. No, I mean, it's true. It's part of the marketing and branding of yourself, right?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (29:43.712)

Yeah, so once you get power, one of the things you do is you give a lot of money to charities. You have stuff named after you. the other thing you do is you hire people to tell your story. Not the true story, but the story that you want to have told. So there was a time, there aren't so many books now, there was a time when there were all these CEO books.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (30:12.276)

Yeah, Koko Chrysler wrote a book and everybody was writing books. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I know John Byrne very well who ghost wrote Jack Welch's book. he and I happened to be together with our spouses at a conference in Estonia. And he and I went out to dinner. And I said to him, he got a little high on the wine.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (30:39.706)

And I said to him, said, you know, I said, you are more responsible for the success of Jack Welch, or at least his perceived success than Jack Welch. he said, and he said, that's actually true. I'm in a good, good, good, good. You know, so people listening to this podcast, you want advice, get, get a good publicist.

Dave Lu (30:59.118)

You know, it's funny you say that because there is, there is a, um, I won't name the woman, but she is, um, credited for, for being like extremely successful, wealthy. And, and I know, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, negative things that she's done, but she's been able to spin the story so that it's complete. Like, don't hear that anywhere anymore. She's paid, managed to pay publicists to wash out a lot of the things that, you know, I'm like, wow, if you do have a good publicist, they really can.

the Google, the results, the articles, the interviews you do on like, know, television and other things, like it changes the narrative completely. So none of that, all the negative stuff that came out for a brief moment has disappeared. And that's, can pay, you can pay to have that cleaned up, amazing what power, you know, when you have that power and the capacity and the resources to do, can do. Do you have...

Jeffrey Pfeffer (31:44.16)

Yeah.

Dave Lu (31:52.409)

Has there been any, so there hasn't been any leader that surprised you and like that's kind of broken your rule, like your rules. It's pretty much like, Nope. Every time I find out the truth, exactly what I thought it was like, nothing has kind of broken out of that.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (32:07.368)

you know, so I'll tell you a wonderful story. So I've become over the years quite friendly with my friend, George Zimmer, the founder and for many years, the CEO of the men's warehouse. wrote a case on the men's warehouse. and then of course, in, I think, I think it was 2013, one day he got thrown out. had, he he had hired a successor.

He and the successor did not get along even though the successor had worked for him for a long time. And he was thrown out as chairman. So I said, you know, I teach a class on losing power because many people have. And so I said, will you come to my class? So he said, absolutely. So I gave, I drove over at that time he had an office in Fremont, California. He doesn't anymore. I drove over to Fremont, gave him a copy of the book, Power. And he comes to the class and he holds up the book and he said,

Dave Lu (32:39.182)

Hmm.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:03.496)

If I had read this book, I would probably, and followed its advice, I would probably still be CEO of the men's warehouse, but I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror. And then my response to him was, said, know, George, I'm sure that's true. Maybe it's true, maybe not. I said, but you know, there are 17,000 people who work for the men's warehouse, who by the way, love you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:27.168)

because they do. He had an amazing relationship. He had a much better relationship with his rank and file employees than he did with his board of directors, which is one of the reasons why he's no longer in his job. In any event, I said, you know, I said, let me suggest to you that you all have had and have a responsibility to those people. And your first responsibility, Machiavelli talks about this. And I know I'm not supposed to probably quote Machiavelli, that the first job of a leader is to keep his job.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:56.638)

Because on the day that you are no longer the leader, you cannot take care of your 17,000, in this case, employees. You cannot longer build a culture in which you are going to absorb the increases in health care costs. You cannot build a culture in which you can take people who had a difficult life and give them second and third and fourth chances, you know, even when they've taken a pair of socks or put a deposit in their pocket or whatever.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (34:25.21)

Because he was famous for basically helping people to become better versions of themselves. And I said, when you're no longer in that job, you can't do any of that. So in order to do good, you have to have the power to do good. And so your first responsibility as a leader is to keep your damn position.

Dave Lu (34:33.07)

Mm.

Dave Lu (34:46.51)

Yeah, that's, that's, I mean, I think more. So that's why people don't realize how important power is not just for the negative, but for the positive. Good leaders, as you say, if power is peace for good, more good people, more good people need power. Wait, you didn't, did you say that? Or was it someone else who said, yeah, you said that? Okay. yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, we need more people, like good people in power. you know, one thing that I've written about

Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:02.999)

I said that, I think.

Dave Lu (35:13.518)

uh, recently, and I'd love to hear your take on it is, you know, lot of folks are saying, oh, well, you know, there are a lot of, you know, successful Asian leaders and, um, out there and running their CEOs of all these companies. And I noticed, and everyone's noticed that they're specifically Indian men. Do you have thoughts on why, I mean, I've, I have my thoughts on why, but why specifically Indian men have managed, they, they index far higher, even than, um, you know, white men in terms of population and the companies.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:29.608)

Yes.

Dave Lu (35:42.99)

that they're at to become CEOs. What are your thoughts on that?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:46.118)

I don't actually have any thoughts on that. I have a friend who you probably know, Nushin Hashemi. Nushin was an early employee at Oracle. She's a Persian. she has thoughts about, she actually built, she was writing stuff and then going to build a class on why different immigrant populations do better at different things and why, you know, why the Persians have been, I think, quite successful financially.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (36:14.868)

but are not very active politically. There are other groups that have not been so successful financially, but are more active. So she has a whole, she had a whole theory about ethnic, why some ethnic groups do better than others at various aspects of life. Unfortunately, she never taught that class or wrote the book. So I can't really give you her theory. So I really don't have an answer to that question, but you certainly have pointed something out that I think is true.

Dave Lu (36:42.892)

Yeah, mean, the way I, well, I theorize that it's culturally, you know, that they are not, they're raised unafraid of conflict. It's kind of like not a, in a lot of, Eastern Asian cultures, the kind of Confucian, like, you know, values are that you try to maintain peace and harmony, whereas they're okay with, you know, having, they don't think of conflict as a bad thing. It's like having a debate, having a discussion, it's okay, but they don't, you know, and I think,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (36:43.956)

What's your theory?

Dave Lu (37:12.526)

Sometimes like I've heard that, you it could be pushed too far, but they don't find it as a bad thing to be able to have, you know, hard conversations. And if you can't have hard conversations, you know, you can't, you can't fire people. can't, you know, argue your way into, you know, certain positions. And so I think that that culturally, and then also they're more willing to socialize outside of their own culture. So I've seen that, you know, personally that a lot of East Asians tend to just kind of stay in their bubbles and safe comfort zones.

I feel like a lot of South Asian men are more willing to socialize outside of their ethnic group. a big part of it, is historically colonization from the British has also, that English speaking, English as a native language, very helpful for that too, that they also not, they've learned the ways from the British. And so there's much more Western than it is kind of Eastern or Asian kind of culture. But a number of things I found.

and then there's also, I hear from my Indian friends that Indian men or boys, their parents or mothers are very, they, they, make them feel like princes, whereas the daughters don't necessarily like feel that way. So they are more emboldened to behave a certain way. And, you know, and you know, this, you sometimes have to act entitled or feel entitled to get the things you want. And some, sometimes that helps a lot.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (38:38.026)

Yep. Yep. Well, that's a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting theory. I don't know if it's right, it's, it sounds extremely plausible. So it's probably.

Dave Lu (38:49.934)

Yeah. mean, I think it's just, it's it's such a strong phenomenon because you see the top like 10 tech companies, like four or five of them are, Indian men being run by Indian men. So it is, it's a very obvious or, know, you can see that, that there is something that's, that they've done right. And that we can learn from too. So I think your next book should be on that, on Indian men. So I guess I want to hear from you, do you have any thoughts on kind of agency? like in terms of how do you, how, from someone who's taken your class and you see that like, this person does not buy anything I'm saying, or they, they're, they're, they're so shy. They're so, you know, passive, there's no way they're going to, you know, gain agency for themselves or speak up or self promote. mean, there's just no chance. Cause I'm sure.

In the many classes that you've taught about, you know, and passive power, there have been folks that did not believe in themselves enough to actually take that, you know, take, take heart and a lot of the lessons. Like, can you think of some stories where that people have broken out of that? Cause I think.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (40:03.06)

Well, so one of the things I did, and I don't know if you know Carol Robin, who was a lecturer at the GSB. about now, I don't know how many years ago, about 15 years ago, she and I used to be.

But she was a lecturer at the GSB. She ran the coaching program. She taught interpersonal dynamics, which the GSB people sometimes know as the class touchy feely. She ran the leadership program when there was a Center for Leadership Development, which I think no longer exists, but in any event, so she was quite active in all of that. And so I went out to lunch with her and I said, I want my class to have more impact on people.

At the moment, we were studying a bunch of people, interesting people, people like Robert Moses, who basically built New York City and State, or Lyndon Johnson, who created things that the Republicans are still trying to overdo 60 years later, and with the Voting Rights Act and a bunch of other stuff. And, you know, these interesting people. And I said, you know, the students look at them like bugs, interesting phenomena, but they could not possibly see how they could relate to them. And she gave me a number of pieces of advice.

And one of the pieces of advice was write cases on people that your students can relate to. So I wrote a case on Keith Frazi, Harvard MBA, you know. So I've tried to write cases on people who are similar to, and bring in as guests, people who are similar to the students in the class. I have an alumni panel, et cetera. OK, that's number one. The second thing she told me to do, or we talked about doing, is to have the students

Don't do a group project in which you study somebody else. Have them do what I've now come to call a pass-the-power project, where during the course of the quarter, you do something where you use the material of the class to try to accomplish something. And hire, which I was able to get the business school to pay for, executive coaches to help them make the transition from observer to act.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (42:15.148)

And so I did all of those things. And so I don't have many people in my class who don't do something during the quarter because they have to do a pass the power project. And they have coaches that are pushing them to be bolder and to push themselves farther and to get out of their comfort zone. And so I have built an infrastructure that helps people make this transition that you're talking about.

Dave Lu (42:40.814)

and what about the people who don't take the class and just read the books?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (42:45.152)

Well...

Some of them reach out to me and say, you recommend an executive coach? And I send them the list of the coaches who work with the class, which is fine. Happy to do it to any of your listeners. My coaches who work with the class help build their coaching practice by working with the class. You have to do something. Social support is important. And you have to do something to get yourself support for doing things, particularly for doing things that are uncomfortable for you. I say, how did?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (43:17.12)

Venus and Serena Williams become great tennis players. They became great tennis players by practice and coaching. That's how you become good at anything. That's how you're going to become good at leadership. That's how you're going to become a good executive. You need coaching and you need practice. And anybody can get coaching and anybody can get practice.

Dave Lu (43:34.946)

I mean, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it is like a sport. you get it's a skill. Like this is all skills that you have to learn and train and work on and repeat and

Jeffrey Pfeffer (43:46.592)

That's correct. And I did not have the good fortune to know Dave Lu a thousand years ago. But I suspect that you are a different person today. I mean, you're still Dave Lu. You didn't change your name. Didn't change. You didn't do gender reassignment surgery or anything else. You are still who you are. And the essence of you is still the same. But your behaviors, I suspect, are quite different than what they were 20 or 30 years ago.

Dave Lu (44:11.074)

Mm-hmm.

I mean, even like five, 10 years ago, I think it's changed drastically. yeah, no, it's true. And I think I get it. I hear a lot of skeptics about coaching and they're like, wow, it's so expensive. I don't know if it's worth it. I can just read books. and like, What would you say to those folks?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (44:31.09)

I would say...

You know, you're going to spend money on all kinds of stuff. Spend money on yourself. Spend money on yourself. You know, you're going to you're going to buy houses and cars and drive cars that are more expensive than what you probably need. You're gonna buy a Tesla, you know, and help and help support Elon Musk and spend seventy four thousand dollars for a car as near is I could determine falls apart. You know, I have a friend who bought a Tesla, you know, getting out of his car one day, the door handle came off.

You know, whatever. I mean, the quality is pretty crappy, but in any event, you spend a lot of money on stuff you don't need. Spend money on yourself. What is more important to invest in than your own career and your own life?

Dave Lu (45:17.612)

Yeah, no, it's, mean, I tell people that if you invest that now, it compounds, the return will compound and you'll actually make more so you can have more to spend. But if you don't take that chance, if you don't invest, you know, you're just squirreling away. And with scarcity mindset, I think you're stuck with that. You keep thinking, well, it's not worth it. I'll just read the books or I'll spend a little on Jeff's masterclass, which I think you should, his books. But I think a coach can specifically tell you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (45:43.456)

Yeah.

Dave Lu (45:44.174)

your weaknesses are and your bad habits and how you can fix them.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (45:47.762)

And also a coach is going to help you do something which I think reading a book will not do. So if you read a book, no one is going to hold you accountable for turning that knowledge into action. So you have to have, you know, the Wall Street Journal writes about having a personal board of directors, whatever, you need to have somebody to help hold you accountable. I mean, that's why, you know, my wife,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (46:15.144)

Now we've moved into this new house. We have a gym. We turned one of the bedrooms. We have lots of bedrooms. So we turned one of the bedrooms into a gym. have a, what she calls a gym bathroom, which is gorgeous by the way, you know, and she has a personal trainer who now comes to the house. used to go to see the personal trainer. Why the hell do you need the personal trainer? You know, in theory,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (46:36.126)

You know, she's working with her with the weights and the exercises and the stretches and the other thing. In theory, you can do that on your own. People have a personal trainer because the personal trainer holds them accountable in a way that they would not do if they did it on their own. It's the same thing here. It's the same thing that we're talking about. Somebody, you need somebody to hold you accountable, to push you. Yes, you can lift that weight.

Dave Lu (47:01.398)

Yeah, it's true. I mean, you can watch a YouTube and how to do it, but if no one keeps telling you to do it and they see you make a mistake or something else that can fix that. Yeah, so I am curious your thoughts. I know that a lot of my power influence comes because I've built up a network in this day and it's, think it's everything. mean, network matters more building alliances, coalitions and sponsors, as you say, it matters more than going at it alone, but they create opportunities and

Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:06.4)

Yeah.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:20.02)

Of course.

Dave Lu (47:31.126)

protection in political environments and other environments as well where you need the sponsors to have your back. In this day and age on social media, you've, you you're getting, you're pretty active on LinkedIn. read your posts. What do you think has changed? Cause you know, 20, 30 years ago, there was no LinkedIn. There was no social media. Do you feel like the game has changed somewhat with social media? I mean, I feel like a lot of people have built their reputations completely on social media.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:58.88)

You've answered your own question. I think, the way, you've given a very good answer, which is I think that's exactly correct. I think people have been able, you know, everybody says now in the age of social media, you can't BS as much as you used to because people will find you out. I actually think you can BS more.

Dave Lu (48:17.502)

more. 100 % Yeah, I mean, it's like the ghost writing thing you were talking about, right? You can control the narrative if you're the one setting it up and yeah.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (48:24.384)

That is absolutely correct. So I think you ought to use as many channels as possible. So one of the exercises that I give in my class, both the online version of the class and the on-campus version of class, is we talk about building a personal brand. What is your brand statement? Who are you? What do you stand for? How is your life experience made you uniquely qualified and, you know, suited for doing what you are aspiring to do? And then...

How are you gonna pitch the brand? How are you gonna get people to know what your brand is? I mean, know, Mercedes has a brand, Coca-Cola has a brand, everybody, all the companies have a brand, but they also don't say, well, you know, we built this brand and now we're gonna keep it a secret. They actually try to make sure that everybody knows what it is they do and what they stand for.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:19.452)

So you need to make sure that somebody besides your immediate family knows what your brand is. That's correct.

Dave Lu (49:24.662)

Yeah, no, you've got to promote. I mean, again, you say no one's going to notice you unless you have the brand, but that you're differentiated from another. If it's, if Mercedes BMW and Lexus were all the same, then no one would, you you can, you wouldn't choose, you just choose any random one. But I think same goes for at your company, your, job or anywhere. People have to know what you, what you mean or what you stand for before they take a bet on you. So, you know, very

Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:49.896)

Yep, yep, yep.

Dave Lu (49:54.338)

you know, helpful information.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:54.43)

Yeah. And I look at you and I think, you know, I think it was done out of obviously sincere emotion and sincere feeling about the fact that you were tired of seeing Asians literally physically attacked, literally physically abused, literally, you know, really harassed in some of the worst and most horrible ways possible.

But in your taking action to bring those wrongs to people's attention and to bring the plight of the Asian American community to people's attention because they were in quotes the model minority and everybody thought.

my God, the African Americans are suffering from discrimination and the Latinos are suffering from discrimination. But everybody kind of forgot about the Asian Americans and bringing all of that and bringing those stories and instances to light, you have built a brand for yourself as a defender and as an advocate for, in fact, your community. I think that's fabulous.

Dave Lu (51:01.186)

No, thank you, Jeffrey. mean, I think for so long, I didn't even realize how invisible I felt like the community felt before until I started speaking up. And then all of a sudden people felt like when they started messaging me, they felt seen. And that's what I think has continued to empower me to reach out. And by doing so, like you said, by building that brand, it also gives me more access to people because there are folks I have no business being friends with that they know the work I've done. And again, create something out of nothing or

Dave Lu (51:30.54)

what I stand for and you know, they, appreciate that whether I have no reason to have to be friends with book, but they appreciate it and their families appreciate it, their kids appreciate it. And so I think there's something to be said about building that trust and those relationships through, know, actually being proactive and, and, know, standing for something or having that brand. So, thank you for, for saying that, Jeff. do you know, do you know of other folks that you feel like have?

Jeffrey Pfeffer (51:34.674)

Of course!

Dave Lu (51:58.785)

Surprised you and how they've built their brand and built power that out of nothing. mean, I think Jason's a great story because he was, you know, just hustled his way,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (52:06.528)

Well, think another story that everybody who's listening to you can relate to, because he's on the media 100 times a minute, my friend Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. I had the privilege of knowing Jeffrey Sonnenfeld when he was an assistant professor at Harvard Business School, because he was there the year I visited Harvard Business School, 1981, 1982. And he started again. I would say the same thing about Jeff Sonnenfeld that I would say about Jason Calacanis. He's an overnight success, built over 30 years.

You know, in the sense that when he started the Chief Executive Leadership Institute, Selly, when he went to Emory University, when he didn't get tenure at Harvard, he went to Emory University, he started the Chief Executive Leadership Institute, you know.

What the hell was the Chief Executive Leadership Institute? Nothing. What was the World Economic Forum when Claus Schwab began again many, many, many decades ago? mean, these people basically, in a world in which they thought there was a... Jeffrey Sonnenfeld had written, had done research on CEOs. He'd written a book called The Hero's Farewell about CEOs leaving their jobs. And he, in his interaction with CEOs, found that CEOs were basically lonely.

that there was nobody that they could really trust and rely on, the people below them all wanted their job, you know, and whatever. And so he built a community of CEOs. And this is now, he now has enormous amounts of influence and power and status, very much as, you know, Klaus Schwab said, you know, I...

Jeffrey Pfeffer (53:41.544)

I need to build a forum where European business leaders, because this began not as a world economic forum, it began as a European business forum, to get European business leaders together. And people will tell you all the reasons why what you're going to try to do isn't going to work. And you will tell yourself those stories yourself. And what I can guarantee you.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (54:08.532)

you will not succeed if you don't try. My now deceased wife, Kathleen Fowler, looked like a supermodel. And so I was never any better looking than I am today. So somebody said, how'd you get her to go out with her? How did you get her to go out with you? And the answer was I asked, how?

You know, how do you get a job? You apply for it. Very few, very few. Maybe you got, maybe you built a relationship with an executive search firm and you get jobs that you didn't apply for. You know, but I suspect most of the people that you have connections with are connections that you were proactive in building. You didn't wait for them to come to Dave, Dave went to them.

Dave Lu (54:49.638)

Mm Right. Yep. Yeah. And a lot of it's like I always tell people, well, the worst thing they can say is no or not respond. But like, that's not that's not so bad. It's like, yeah. And sometimes, I mean, you can't I think people take things so personally, like, they didn't want to meet with me or they ignored my email. I mean, they're if they're busy, if they're powerful and busy, obviously, there's a reason they might have seen it. But yeah.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (54:59.166)

That's correct. That's correct. That's correct.

It doesn't matter. If you can't take rejection, you're not going to do very well in sales.

Dave Lu (55:18.668)

Yes, I mean, that's one thing I always thought about the GSP, like that. I wish there was there's no course on sales. feel like that's the most important.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (55:26.538)

Well, there was. I don't know if it's still being taught, but my colleague Jim Lattin and yeah, yeah, I think there is a class on sales, but you're certainly right. I have a friend named Alston Gardner. Alston built a company called Target Marketing Systems, which he sold to CBO for $300 million. He's a very wealthy man. And anyway, my friend Alston would teach a class that he stopped teaching it, I think, for a while at the University of North Carolina at the Keenan Flagler School on sales. And Olson would say the same thing. He would say, you know, says, everybody, everybody, you know, everybody's wants to be doing strategy, whatever. said, at the end of the day, you need somebody who's actually going to bring the revenue in. That's called sales. Somebody has to close the deal.

Dave Lu (56:10.956)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But I mean, think even beyond just like selling for revenue, sales is hiring. It's like building, like raising capital. It's building relationships. It's exactly every day.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (56:23.102)

That's correct. You're selling yourself every day. Every day you are in the marketplace where you are selling who you are, you're selling your ideas, you're selling your point of view, you are selling on a regular basis, not only for your venture capital firm, but you are selling a set of ideas around the Asian American community.

Dave Lu (56:46.222)

Yeah, that was true. I it's, it's something that I think it's not inherent to when you're, feel like it was not valued as a skill. mean, when we're raised to be focused on STEM and, know, things like sales or, you know, things like that, like, that's not going to help you make any money. I'm like, that's sales is the one thing that would help you make the most money probably. but I think it's like, you know, people think, it's all fluff. It's all soft power skills, you know, like, well, that's actually what gets you access to more capital, more money, more powerful people is the, that's those soft skills. do you like, so, so I need you, you talked about how branding becoming noticeable, building reputation, making others like, tell us about, how do you make others dependent on you? I mean, I think that's an important skill that I think is helps you gain power as well.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (57:22.453)

No.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (57:40.64)

Well, I think part of that is building a network, you know, so that you can... And part of that... So everybody thinks that networking is going to some cocktail party and schmoozing with people. Networking... My friend John Levy wrote a book called You're Invited.

And he, of course, has built a career out of these influencers dinners. what he says to my class, and I think this is exactly correct, is that networking is about being generous. It is about saying, OK, I know Dave, and I know somebody else who Dave could benefit from knowing, and I'm going to connect them together. And that's how you build. then if you become or creating events. So you created dinners.

My friend, Jeff Sonnenfeld has created these events. Jason Calacanis has created a ton of events. Founder University, Angel University, Startup University, all kinds of things. This Week in Startups, and blah, And so you create forums where you, number one, control the access, but number two, where you're adding value to the people who attend those forums.

Dave Lu (58:57.55)

Yeah. mean, and those folks who attend, they feel not necessarily indebted, but they do, they appreciate and they know you're the point of contact that created that opportunity or built, you know, for them to meet other people. I always tell people in my writing was like this, making an introduction or sending an email to introduce people who you know, benefit from one another or someone will be at, I mean, it costs you literally nothing. Maybe like a minute or two of your time to write an email, but the returns from that, mean, they,

Jeffrey Pfeffer (59:05.066)

Yeah.

Dave Lu (59:27.636)

You can't even measure down the road how much that will help you. But I think some people think it's not worth the time or not worth the effort to do that. I think proactively doing so is a superpower for sure and definitely helps.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (59:35.987)

Yeah.

That's correct. And as you're discussing all the things that people

people say to you, what I hear in the stories is people making excuses for not taking action.

Dave Lu (59:53.314)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people find excuses like however they can, because then they don't want to take responsibility for their own, like realizing that they need to take, they need to do it themselves. If you can find an excuse, it's like asking permission that gives you an excuse to not, to not do anything. Cause someone is like, well they told me I can do it. But what gave them the authority to tell you you couldn't do it? Right. well, so, I think, mean, gosh, I've

Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:00:20.158)

That's exactly correct.

Dave Lu (01:00:26.114)

There's so much we always have to talk about and I love hearing your stories. And we can go on and on, which we probably will next time too, we have a meal. But I just wanted to thank you, Jeff, for being an ally first to the Asian American community. I know many folks in the community have said how grateful they are for your teaching and everyone who I've recommended the books to have devoured them and learn a lot. I think it's hard to measure how much impact you've had on many people's lives.

You get to hear on the podcast sometimes with your interviews, you know, some of your former students and you see the results. Um, but not enough people get, you don't get to hear enough from people who you've actually touched and changed their lives and the trajectory with, just by reading your book or hearing a conversation like this. think so often I write these essays and I think, Oh, well, if it helps one person, you know, actually change how they behave and it helps them. Then it's the, was worth it. It was, it was well worth it. And I know you've changed.

many, many lives more than you can even realize or will ever realize. and so I'm glad, I mean, I know you're not, you're not going to retire. You will teach until the day you can't teach. but that just means that many more people whose lives you're going to impact, for, for, you know, generations to come. So, thank you for, for taking the time to one for your friendship and also for taking the time to speak with me today.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:01:46.484)

Well, thank you for being so generous about me and my contributions and so kind to me. it's a joy and a pleasure to get to know you better. I have tremendous respect for you. And apparently, given the interaction you described that occurred when you visited my class, I apparently have a higher opinion of you than you have of yourself. There you go.

Dave Lu (01:02:13.676)

I'm working on that. I need a coach to help me talk me through that.

Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:02:16.448)

There you go. I know I have great admiration for what you've accomplished and it's really a joy to know you.

I kept pushing through equations, rivulets of snot and tears running down my face. “Wipe your face!” Dad ordered. I shuffled to the bathroom and blew my nose as slowly as I possibly could, dreading the return. That snotty moment was my only respite. Dad never explained how I might solve the problems. He just hit me when I got them wrong. By the time I finished the worksheet, my head was throbbing. I went back to summer school the next day as if nothing had happened, turning in my homework with a smile. I learned less about fractions that summer than about the danger of mistakes. Making them, especially in front of others, led to pain and humiliation.

I never talked about getting beaten at home. Corporal punishment was part of our culture. Americans wouldn’t understand, my parents told us. According to them, it was both totally normal and something to hide. As I got older, I became a world-class compartmentalizer. I could get slapped one minute and slap a smile on my face the next. Everything is fine. Everything is normal. At some point, I started to believe my own story.

An excerpt from Like a Wave We Break, A Memoir of Falling Apart and Finding Myself

My friend Jane Chen had it all. She had degrees from Harvard and Stanford. She co-founded and led a company that helped save 1 million babies around the world. She was meeting President Obama and Beyonce. On the surface, she looked like she had it all, but inside she was fighting for her life.

“I was in the worst place of my life. I was completely burned out after 10 years of doing this work and decided to take time off to focus on my mental health and well-being.

In the process, I began to confront my past trauma. I grew up in a home with domestic violence. In my relentless efforts to build Embrace Global, I had never understood what was driving me so hard. I realized that feeling so powerless in my childhood made me want to help the most powerless people in the world. But it turns out healing others does not heal your own wounds. The abuse I experienced made me feel like I wasn’t enough — no matter how many degrees I got, accolades I won, or babies I saved. Unfortunately, we live in a society in which our self-worth is often predicated on external factors: our successes, our failures, how others perceive us.”

- Jane Chen

Jane endured verbal and physical abuse from her father, things that our culture tells us to never acknowledge or speak of, but that have long-lasting effects. She desperately sought healing through dozens of modalities from working with world-renowned trauma experts to doing psychedelic journeys. Through it all, she learned how to have self-compassion and find an inner sense of self-worth.

So many of us struggle daily with this, questioning whether we are enough. We believe that our achievements and failures define us, that our LinkedIn profiles are what give us value. Jane had accomplished so much in the eyes of the world, when in fact she was still that little girl fighting her whole life to prove to her father that she was worthy of his love and acceptance as she was.

Some of the greatest achievements in human history have come from those who have experienced deep trauma, driven by a chip on the shoulder or trying to prove themselves to someone else. But that achievement does not heal the trauma, it merely hides it better.

That’s why Jane has written her memoir titled, Like a Wave We Break. She hopes that by unapologetically sharing her story, others will feel that they have permission to face their trauma and seek healing themselves.

Unfortunately, many Asian Americans are far too familiar with her journey, I know I am. Her book starts a taboo conversation that many of us have never been ready to have. It speaks about the unspoken physical and mental abuse that happens in far too many households, that is culturally acceptable, but morally reprehensible. It gives people the permission to heal. It’s time to make the taboo not taboo.

My LinkedIn post about the book now has close to 100,000 views and over 40 reposts. More importantly, there are over 100 comments so far. Comments from people who resonated and related to Jane's experience of childhood trauma leading to a lifelong questioning of self-worth and validation despite finding success in the eyes of the world. Sadly, these are shared experiences across cultures and many are immigrant stories. I think Jane's story resonates because so many have had to bury this trauma in order to survive and thrive, but have never fully processed or dealt with it. Whenever we hear someone else's story that resembles ours, it gives us permission to acknowledge and talk about it. What was once unacceptable becomes acceptable.

Jane wasn't sure she would have an audience with her book, but through the positive response to the post, she feels validated that her story does matter and is going to help a lot of people. She's already helped over a million babies survive. Now she can help many adults thrive as well.

Right now her book is the #1 selling new release in Asian American and Asian Biographies on Amazon. By making her book a bestseller, it will get the recognition it deserves, so more people will be made aware of it and hopefully benefit from her vulnerability and wisdom. Please pre-order the book to support!

Fun Fact: Jane went was high school classmates with Kaila Yu, the second ranked book author, in Upland, California. This is from a high school with a relatively small population of Asian students!

In this conversation, David shares how film school shaped his entrepreneurial mindset, the serendipitous meeting that turned “the worst idea AOL ever heard” into a $1.6M investment, and why storytelling is the most underrated skill in business. We talk about building one of the first online ad models, bluffing with confidence, creating the universal wedding registry before e-commerce was mainstream, and how his journey as a founder, restaurateur, and oyster farmer always comes back to creativity and adaptability.

Whether you’re a founder, creator, or just love a good origin story, this episode is packed with lessons on resilience, reinvention, and the power of narrative.