Most of us grew up believing that if you work hard, keep your head down, and deliver results, success will follow. But my guest today argues that’s one of the biggest myths in business. Professor Jeffrey Pfeffer, from the Stanford Graduate School of Business, has spent decades studying power and leadership — and his research shows that visibility, influence, and networks matter far more than raw performance.
In this conversation, we dive into the real rules of power: why Asian Americans in particular often hit the bamboo ceiling, and what it actually takes to rise and lead effectively. Jeff and I talk about why waiting for permission is a trap, why imposter syndrome is just another excuse, and how power can be used not only to advance yourself but to do good for others.
This is a candid look at the game behind the game — with stories from Jeff’s decades of teaching and research, and personal reflections on how Asian Americans can claim more influence in business and society.
As Professor Pfeffer points out, “Spend money on yourself. What’s more important to invest than your own career and your own life?” Executive coaching can unlock your full potential and take your career to the next level. Most of the time, we’re the ones holding ourselves back. That’s why we launched the Asian Leadership Center to help Asian American executives find the right coaches that resonate with their shared experiences and cultural upbringing (and the baggage that comes along with it). To learn more visit the Asian Leadership Center at Corporate Edge.
Full Transcript
Dave Lu (00:01.996)
Today's guest is Professor Jeffrey Pfeffer from the Stanford School of Business, where I graduated from. Most of us feel, grow up believing that you work hard, keep your head down and deliver results. Success will naturally follow, but my guest today argues that's one of the biggest myths in business. Professor Pfeffer has spent decades studying power and leadership and his research shows that visibility, influence and networks matter far more than raw performance. In our conversation, we're gonna break down the real rules of power and why so many professionals, especially Asian Americans, hit bamboo ceilings and what it takes to rise and lead effectively. This is candid look at the game behind the game.
So thank you, Professor Jeffrey, for being with us.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (00:44.472)
Dave, it's a pleasure to be with you. You know I'm a big fan of you and personally, I'm a huge fan of what you're trying to do to advance the Asian American community. There is of course a bamboo ceiling, as documented by the Ascend Foundation. And I, to the extent that I can do anything to help people overcome that ceiling, I'm thrilled to be involved in that project.
Dave Lu (01:10.444)
And you have been, mean, Jeff, you've spent your time volunteering with Asian Leadership Summits. And we had a fireside chat at the GSB Asian Alumni Conference. You've been such a great supporter and even your podcasts. You've featured many friends and our mutual friends Deb Liu and others that you've highlighted and supported their stories on. So thank you for that, for being an ally and for being so just giving of your time to our community.
You don't have to honestly care about it, you do. So thank you for that.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:42.984)
It's my pleasure.
Dave Lu (01:44.888)
So let's dive right into it. You've written books on power, both Seven Rules of Power, Power. You've taught this class for how many years now?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:55.968)
You don't want to know. So when I came to Stanford as a full professor in the year 1979, dinosaurs were roaming the earth or whatever. In any event, I was asked to develop an elective based upon research that I had been doing on power. And so I decided to develop an elective on power for the simple reason that power is an important topic, but that no one was actually teaching about it.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (02:25.632)
There was not an elective. That was the same year, believe it or not, by accident or coincidence, that John Cotter began teaching his power and influence elective at Harvard Business School. And at that time, these were the first two electives on power, I think, taught anywhere in the world. Nobody was talking about power.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (02:43.2)
And it was, like many of the things I've studied, an important phenomenon that was underexplored and undertook. And it was important, I thought, for people to understand. So I began teaching this class in 1979. I have not taught it continuously. For a while, I taught human resource management in the core course of organizational behavior. And my colleague, late Gene Webb, and my retired colleague, Rod Kramer, taught power. But then when I started teaching it again, I decided that I would do that.
for the rest of my career. And of course, I don't intend to retire. So who knows how long this will go on.
Dave Lu (03:19.726)
Yeah, I mean, I've seen the syllabus for the class. did not get to take the class while I was in school. I very much regret that, but I'm glad we're friends now talking about it. But I mean, you say like, you people often think of power as a dirty word with negative connotations and you say, Hey, this class might not be for you and bold letters. This class might not be for everyone because I'm going to say things that'll make you uncomfortable. And you talk about power in a way that, you you say, this is how power has been.
forever, it currently is and will always be. And lot of people don't want to hear that because they think that it's often perceived as self-serving or selfish and has negative connotations. But most people don't really think about power being used for good and how it can help others and make positive impact as well.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (04:05.723)
Well, you the model of GSB, you know, Dave, is change lives, change organizations, change the world. And if you're going to change anything, you need influence. Because if change were going to happen without influence, it would have happened already. So, you know, I mean, there is a lot of inertia in social systems. There's a lot of inertia in organizations. There's a lot of inertia in society. And so to take an example near and dear to your heart, if Asian Americans
are going to do better in their careers. if the bamboo ceiling is going to be taken down or destroyed or penetrated or whatever, it's going to require influence to do that.
Dave Lu (04:46.38)
Yeah. No, I mean, and that's something that we need to learn. And there's a lot of kind of cultural upbringing and baggage that we have that keeps us from doing that. You talk about having agency and, you know, agentic behavior, how important that is. I think that's not something that we grew up being told we could have because a lot of our parents decided what we're supposed to be when we grew up and so, and what we're allowed to do. And a lot of that was asking for permission and, kind of
behaving by the rules. so a lot of, and there's scarcity mindset that gives us that mentality because our parents don't want us to kind of, when they came over, they didn't want to risk anything because they want to make sure that they were, you know, had safety, security. And, you know, that was what they cared about most. And that's what they prioritized. But I mean, in your books, you talk about power in ways that, you know, I think it's, and again, I've written about you multiple times and everyone keeps buying your books. You know, it's good, good, good for you, but they're...
They say how much it's moved them because they haven't thought about power in this way. But a lot of the things that we grew up with, you know, that you put as your rules of power, of getting out of your own way, breaking rules, you know, showing up in a powerful fashion, building a personal brand of self-promotion. These are things that we do not grow up being, we're not grown up to think like. And so they're antithetical to our culture. I mean, how have you, I know you didn't write this in the context of Asians, but.
In your conversations with a lot of Asian American leaders, have you seen that or do you find that a lot of people have struggled getting through this and how have they broken through?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (06:21.024)
Well, I think everybody has struggles breaking through it, as you probably know or may not know. I don't know what you know and don't know. I recently released a master class on Power. Yeah. And so, know, so, you know, so we we've taken my teaching on Power from 10 weeks to the eight week online version. And now we're in the one hour version with with master class is basically not much more than an hour. And my sense is from reading the responses are the things that people have sent to me on LinkedIn. I think this is not natural for not only for Asian Americans, I think it's not natural for many people. I think we want to believe that the world is a just and fair place and that good work will get rewarded in and of and by itself and you don't have to do anything except keep your head down. We're taught early on, follow the rules. I think
Dave Lu (06:59.523)
Mm-hmm.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (07:16.448)
At least when I went to school, if I can remember back that far, to elementary school and, you know, even high school, but certainly in elementary school, the first thing that you learn is to follow the rules. You know, the teacher tells you, sit in your desk, Dave, you're supposed to sit in your desk. You know, it's time for recess. OK, now we get to go outside and play. It's time to study reading. It's time to study math.
We are going to tell you what to do. That school, and there's actually been research on this, the school is mostly about learning to fit in and learning to conform. And so it's not just Asian Americans who I think are taught this. I think everybody's taught this. You know, sometimes I say to people, I'm trying to picture the little boy, Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, you know, following the rules and being told you can't do this or you can't do that. I think the people who create
amazing things in this world are people who do not accept the barriers that have been placed in front of them. I'm sure that has been true in your own career. As you built a great career in technology and in venture capital, I'm sure people gave you all kinds of...
Dave Lu (08:19.502)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (08:30.674)
rules about what you could and couldn't do and you can't go out on your own and there too many other venture capital firms and who wants a venture capital firm focused on the Asian American community and blah, blah, blah. And you, course, you, of course, said, I am not going to accept the limits that other people set for me. And that is fundamentally what this is about, not accepting limits that other people impose.
Dave Lu (08:54.21)
I mean, it's definitely true that I grew up thinking I had to ask permission for everything, but realizing that I have to take it myself. I can't wait for someone else to give it to me. Because I think a lot of us have been raised to think, you have to always ask permission. Don't assume you can just grab something. Like, well, if you don't, you might not get it. Because I mean, it's not just survival. It's just actually this is how you gain power and influence.
A lot that is getting out of our own way and getting out our own heads because we always make, apologize for everything. I mean, this was an anecdote from last year. I went to your class and you asked me to introduce myself. And I was, mean, I don't know. I made myself seem small. I was like, no, you know, I did this thing. It's not a big deal. And you just, you you reprimanded me for the whole class saying, don't do that. So there's a learning moment. There's a teaching moment right in front of me.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (09:46.368)
Yeah, that's exactly right. And because look, I mean, you have you put together amazing dinners that you've been kind enough to invite me to a few of you put together an amazing community, you put together an amazing firm, you've had an amazing career. And so, you know, you're you're sitting in on my class. So when I call on you, should you should at least acknowledge what the hell you've done because because you've done it. I mean, it's not like you've made it's not like you made stuff up. Many people.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (10:16.378)
I mean, many people take credit for stuff they didn't do. You didn't want to take credit for stuff that you actually had done.
Dave Lu (10:18.702)
For those listening. I'm very red right now. I'm not watching, but yes, no, it's true. I think that was it's I mean, being put in the spotlight is not something that I've always been comfortable with. And even, know, public speaking, I didn't always love it because I cared too much about what other people thought of me. But then I realized more and more I should not care about what other people think of me because the one thing in my 40s
Like maybe in my late 30s I realized like the more I realized how little people actually think of you, like then you realize it doesn't matter because they spend time, they have their own lives to worry about. So stop worrying about what other people think. But it's, I mean, it very much was, you know, in my, I started my first company at 30, I had realized how much of my self identity had been built up in the name brands that I, you know, my Stanford GSB degree working at Yahoo, eBay going to, you know,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (10:54.228)
That's... Yeah.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (11:01.31)
Yep.
Dave Lu (11:17.934)
an Ivy League school, all these things are all hell of that. And then I was starting a company with no name, no one ever heard of, and it just made me feel really small. And then that gave me a thick skin to realize I don't care what these other people think because I'm building my own thing. And that's, think that was very liberating for me. And honestly, I think we grew up being told that everything is a meritocracy, but that's just BS because that's not the case. I give talks.
at court companies and I could tell young people in college and high school that I talk to, you know, it doesn't matter how good your work is if no one sees it. If you don't have relationships with the people that are going to make a decision about promoting you, you're never going to promoted because you know, your work is great. But if they don't see it or know that it was you, someone else will probably take credit for it. What are your thoughts on kind of meritocracy? And because I mean, I imagine you've studied cultures and
abroad in Asia and Europe and, know, wherever else. And I mean, are those societies actually more meritocratic? Cause some people will say, you know, I w took Jeff's class at Stanford and I went to Hong Kong and I tried the stuff there and it did not work out very well. And so I'm like, I don't know, maybe it was different, but do you find that in different cultures? Like this is more applicable to Western society.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (12:34.952)
No. So one year I used to my students in my power class a group project. I don't anymore. And so a group of actually Asian students said this won't work in Asia. And I said, well, why don't you make a group project on somebody in Asia and go and see if it actually works. And they came back and they said, well, you know, you were actually right. It works. It works the same everywhere.
Dave Lu (12:53.326)
Yeah, mean, I'm pretty sure Jack Ma did not follow the rules and he did a lot of the followed a lot of your rules and that's how he became Jack Ma.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (13:03.872)
that is correct. I mean, every society puts constraints on people and every industry has a set of conventional wisdom, set of conventional beliefs. And the people who, when Jeff Bezos began selling books online and...
you know, the Amazon online marketplace, think I, sure, everybody told them this was insane. And, you know, particularly with free shipping and all this other stuff, you know, I mean, there is a conventional way of doing things. When you think about it, you know, in strategy, if I told you, you were going to start a company, what strategy should you use? You would probably provide, you would probably...
Jeffrey Pfeffer (13:50.57)
pursue a strategy of differentiation. And when I started a grocery store, I'm not going to do it the same as every other grocery store because what the hell, how is that going to give me any comparative advantage? And so, you know, Whole Foods broke the rules about how to succeed in the grocery business. Southwest Airlines broke the rules about how to succeed in the airline business. The conventional wisdom was hub and spoke, you know.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (14:13.472)
the whole of the Southwest understood that people bought a ticket to get from one place to the other. And when you were the number 23 in line to take off in Dallas and waiting to take off, nobody was making any money. Not only were you aggravated, but nobody was making any money because I did not sell you a ticket that said, we're going to charge you extra for getting to sit for 45 minutes waiting to take off. And so the idea that, and my friend, the famous George Zimmer.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (14:41.052)
reinvented, you know, selling K.W.I.D. men's clothing. Unfortunately, his business is now bankrupt because they threw him out. in any event, know, I think I think you that innovation comes from doing things differently and innovation and human beings career is again very much thinking about how do I how do I succeed? How do I play to my strengths to use the gallop title of the Gallup book? How do I?
How do I make the most of the opportunities that I've been given? And to use a phrase that you've used already several times in this conversation, not sit around and wait. Don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Don't wait for someone to give you permission because they probably won't.
Dave Lu (15:24.329)
Mm-hmm. Yep. I always say it's like, if you're waiting for someone to give you permission, you're basically, you know, giving yourself an excuse to fail or give up because you're assuming that someone else is gonna allow you to do something and that never works. So what are your thoughts? I've always wondered, you know, growing up in Asian house and we're often afraid of, you know, taking risks or making mistakes because, you know, they grow up in, our parents in that generation grow up,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (15:36.904)
Yep. Yep.
Dave Lu (15:50.511)
in a society where one exam determines the rest of your future and if you get a 95, that's not good enough. So making those mistakes can be costly, but we often compare ourselves to others because that's what our parents did to us. But we then end up tending to doubt ourselves a lot more even when we're completely competent and capable, but just lack that confidence. What are your thoughts on that imposter syndrome? I mean, do you have any advice on how to handle imposter syndrome?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (16:16.788)
Well, know, because attitude, because attitudes follow behavior. If you want to get over imposter syndrome, stop acting like an imposter. So if you if you act with confidence, I suspect that this will resonate very well with you to the extent that I know you. If you act like you're confident over time, you will in fact feel more confident.
Dave Lu (16:33.518)
Mm-hmm.
Dave Lu (16:39.832)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is true. I've experienced that myself.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (16:44.672)
Of course. So if you want to get over imposter syndrome, stop acting like an imposter. Stop thinking of yourself as an imposter. That's simple. Look at the people around you. I mean, we have all kinds of people in high-level positions. They aren't any better than anybody else. They've mostly just been bolder.
Dave Lu (16:53.506)
That simple? That's true.
Dave Lu (17:06.958)
That's it.
Yeah, I mean, we see the government today, we see a lot of people who are not more competent and they're very bold and very, very confident. We know they're imposters, but they don't act like it. They don't, they don't think they are. So, you know, I often get from comments from folks who disagree with me saying, Dave, why do you blame Asians for being the way we are? This is how we learn why we have to change our culture versus
Jeffrey Pfeffer (17:14.334)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
No, that's exactly right.
Dave Lu (17:38.189)
Like why shouldn't the system change for us? And I tell them like, good luck with that. Like this is not going to change for you. Like the only chance you have in real, the real world is if you learn to play the game the way it's meant to play. And I mean, whether we like it or not, this is not just for us. Like you said, it's for everyone. have to, the only way to succeed is to stand out and to be more self-promotional, to break more rules, to do all these things. But you know, a lot of people have criticized saying, you know,
Why are we forced to change? Why aren't other people forced to change? What are your thoughts on that?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (18:10.078)
Well, you know, what they're saying is that life isn't fair, to which I would say that's exactly right. Life isn't fair. But, you know, you know, if you've got to play football, you got to play by the football rules. You could say, you know, I don't like football. People who play football often wind up with brain injuries. People who play football often wind up with arthritis, you know, after after they've after their active careers are finished. People who play football get injured. It's a contact sport.
You don't have to play football. If you're going to play football, you're going to have to play by the rules of football. If you're going to play soccer, you're going to play by the rules of soccer. If you're going to play basketball, you're going to play by the rules of basketball. You can choose the game you're going to play. But once you're in that game, particularly up until the point at which you have the power to change those rules, you have to play by those rules.
Dave Lu (19:05.134)
Yeah, that's true. If you're, if you're a hundred pounds and you want to play football, you know, good luck, they're not going to change the game for you. You'll probably get crushed and injured. You're too small. Yeah. Um, so you've, you've written kind of a lot about power and in many ways, but like, what are kind of practical steps someone can take earlier on their career? Cause I get a lot of folks who listen to me that are very junior, like analysts and associates, you know, they're, they're, you know,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (19:12.628)
That's exactly right.
Dave Lu (19:34.323)
minions basically. mean, can you do believe that you can build power as someone so young in a large organization?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (19:41.044)
You have to start building power so young in that organization. As everybody listening to you knows, there are fewer positions at the top than at the bottom. And therefore, as soon as you enter, whether we're talking about a management consulting firm or investment banking firm or commercial real estate firm or law firm or an accounting firm or whatever kind of organization you're working in, there are relatively few.
You know, not every management consultant is going to make partner. Not every management consultant is going to even be made manager. Not every accountant is going to be made a partner. Not every consultant, et cetera, et cetera. And so therefore, you have to begin to do something to stand out. Basically, I would not say on day one. I would say you have to do something to stand out even before you get.
to your first job. So, you know, one of the cases I teach is my friend, Keith Farazzi, who wrote the book Never Eat Alone and who's got your back and is a marketing brand building guru. You know, when he was graduating from Harvard Business School.
He was being recruited by McKinsey and was recruited by Deloitte Consulting. And he said to the people at Deloitte, if you want me to come to work for you, I have to be able to have dinner with your CEO, Pat Locanto, once a year. That was a bold move. Not everybody would have done that. But he understood that if he was going to succeed in that organization, people senior in that organization had to know who the hell he was amongst all these first-year consultants.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (21:17.0)
And so he, his career has been bold from the beginning.
Dave Lu (21:22.106)
Yeah, mean, to power helps you gain power. I've learned that for sure. Like, you know, the relationships I've built, the network I've built, it definitely kind of, you, if you aren't close to power, you, can't get power. and so you have to find ways and get creative about it. Do you have any stories? I mean, you have so many stories, but do you have any specific stories of kind of creative ways that people have gotten proximity to power? Cause people always ask me like, Dave, I don't have the same powerful, famous, whatever friends that you do. I don't know how to get that.
And I often say, like.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (21:52.34)
Well, know, but Dave, I'm sure your answer is, when I began, I didn't have the same powerful friends that I do. You know, I mean, everybody would look at you, they look at you today and, you know, and the dinners that you put together and the people that you have access to. But that was not you 20 years ago. That was not you 25 years ago. It's the same story I tell about my friend Jason Calacanis, you know, the king of, you know, the...
Jeffrey Pfeffer (22:21.136)
early stage investing, angel investing, et cetera. You know, I tell him when he comes to my class, say, Jason Calacanis is an overnight success built over 25 years. I mean, and you are an overnight success built over the years and years that you have spent basically meeting people, talking to people, building your career, building your skills. And so it is not really fair. It's not reasonable, it's not sensible for somebody to see Dave
Jeffrey Pfeffer (22:51.264)
you know, in your current stage and say, oh, I'm not that. Well, you weren't that at one point either. And so the question would be, not I'm not you, of course I'm not you. How did you get there? And what can I do that you did? How can I learn from your career path? kind of what can I learn from where you are today?
Dave Lu (23:13.272)
Yeah. I mean, I would say that a lot of power I had did not come from staying on rails or in a track or a path. was each time it created something out of nothing is when I gained, think more, influence and power. If there was a community that needed to be built, I did that. And then people came and they're like, I get credit for that. It's like Jason, when he started the paper and had the top 100 list and all the things that he did, he created something out of nothing. And that hustle and that
When someone, when other people need something and then you're the ones who provides it for them, you create that whatever that might be community or, you know, source of information, people find power that I keep seeing now that I've done that a few times over from the Wall Street Journal letter to the Asian American founders committee and others. I see that on LinkedIn from other friends who've, you know, started an AI community. I'm like, they're gaining power or they're having conferences or they set up their own. Like it didn't exist before, but they started in.
AI conference or a podcast, Lenny, Lenny, Rachitsky, you started the, you know, AI like lean, like the product podcast, but they've gained so much power and influence because they provided something that didn't exist before. And people, get credit for that. It's if you wait for someone to give it, if you try to get, know, try to get the credit from someone and wait for it, it doesn't happen, but they didn't wait. They just created something out of nothing. And then they get a tribute. The attribution goes to them. So then they get the credit and the power that goes along with it. So.
I think it's a lot of it is creating something out of nothing that most people don't because of inertia or whatever it is, they don't bother trying to do. But Jason's story was that multiple times again and again. So and that was the class that I walked I came in on that I sat in on was Jason's class that he was a guest in and in your in your lecture. So it's it's funny. So I know you say it's a lot, but you have certain thoughts about
leadership writing from many people. You know, you don't hold back on your thoughts on some of these writers who talk about, you know, leading with humility and authenticity and servant leadership and that, you know, all these, you know, terms that we hear a lot about on Instagram or TikToks and can you share your thoughts about a lot of these folks who write about leadership?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (25:31.346)
Well, you know, I think they... So the problem with the leadership literature is that it's very much like Sunday school, is very much about how people think the world should be rather than how it is. And, you know, and I think there is obviously a place for, you know, for church and for religion, for religious celebration and for people to, you know...
to teach many of the parables of the New and Old Testament. But that is not necessarily how the world works. so therefore, you know, it's not very useful advice. You have to distinguish from what is, from what ought to be.
Dave Lu (26:17.964)
And so, yeah, I mean, I think people have an idealized perception of what leaders should be and, you know, what the actual leaders that rise to the top do and are. And I won't name names, Simon Sinek and others that, the thoughts, but I mean, I do feel like we see a lot of things that, you know, I think there's, it makes sense in our mind when we hear that, like, yeah, you know, people will follow that, but then, you know, that, that isn't the case. But.
I mean, do you feel like that there is necessarily only one archetype of, of leader that, you know, I think there's a perception that a leader has to be, you know, a certain way. you find that there are many exceptions that in your, in your research, you know, that, cause there are, yeah.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (27:00.348)
Of course, of course. And also, you know, it's interesting. So Jim Collins wrote Good to Grade and Built to Last, co-authored of Good to Grade and Built to Last, did an endorsement for my power book, Power Why Some People Have It and Others Don't. And somebody said, how did you get him to do the endorsement? I said to him, Jim, you know, because he's written a lot about level five readers, know, modesty.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (27:28.264)
And I said to Jim, who knows these people very well, I said, were they modest on the way to the top? He said, no. He said, so oftentimes, the CEOs who are one way or claim to be one way when they get to the top of the organization aren't that way on the way up. So I think once you have power,
You can behave differently than what you need to do on your climb to power. I think that's for sure. And also, I think, you know, many people tell stories. once you become a famous, fancy CEO, you hire a ghostwriter, you write a book, and you basically, you know, tell the world what you want the world to believe about you, which is not necessarily the truth. So I will tell the story because I will name names because of course I'm completely...
politically incorrect. So some years ago, I served on the board of a company. I had a fellow board member who served actually on the audit committee with me, who at the time was working for Medtronic. And around that time, Bill George and my friend Pete Simms brought out the book True North, which talks about Bill George teaches now as a lecturer at Harvard Business School.
Dave Lu (28:23.835)
You
Jeffrey Pfeffer (28:53.296)
on leadership. So I said to her, I said to her, you know, I was, I guess more naive than I am today. Whatever I said to her, said, wow. I said, you know, you know, the book had just come out. I said, I assume you've read True North. She said, absolutely. I said, wow, what is it like to work for Bill George? She said, the first thing I could tell you is that nothing like True North.
Dave Lu (29:19.042)
Hahaha!
Jeffrey Pfeffer (29:20.704)
I mean, people tell stories. People ask me why I don't go to the View from the Top at Stanford where we bring in these CEOs. I if I want fiction, I'll go watch a good movie. I don't need hear some CEO tell some story about how they want the world to perceive them.
Dave Lu (29:38.702)
That's hilarious. No, I mean, it's true. It's part of the marketing and branding of yourself, right?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (29:43.712)
Yeah, so once you get power, one of the things you do is you give a lot of money to charities. You have stuff named after you. the other thing you do is you hire people to tell your story. Not the true story, but the story that you want to have told. So there was a time, there aren't so many books now, there was a time when there were all these CEO books.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (30:12.276)
Yeah, Koko Chrysler wrote a book and everybody was writing books. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I know John Byrne very well who ghost wrote Jack Welch's book. he and I happened to be together with our spouses at a conference in Estonia. And he and I went out to dinner. And I said to him, he got a little high on the wine.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (30:39.706)
And I said to him, said, you know, I said, you are more responsible for the success of Jack Welch, or at least his perceived success than Jack Welch. he said, and he said, that's actually true. I'm in a good, good, good, good. You know, so people listening to this podcast, you want advice, get, get a good publicist.
Dave Lu (30:59.118)
You know, it's funny you say that because there is, there is a, um, I won't name the woman, but she is, um, credited for, for being like extremely successful, wealthy. And, and I know, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, negative things that she's done, but she's been able to spin the story so that it's complete. Like, don't hear that anywhere anymore. She's paid, managed to pay publicists to wash out a lot of the things that, you know, I'm like, wow, if you do have a good publicist, they really can.
the Google, the results, the articles, the interviews you do on like, know, television and other things, like it changes the narrative completely. So none of that, all the negative stuff that came out for a brief moment has disappeared. And that's, can pay, you can pay to have that cleaned up, amazing what power, you know, when you have that power and the capacity and the resources to do, can do. Do you have...
Jeffrey Pfeffer (31:44.16)
Yeah.
Dave Lu (31:52.409)
Has there been any, so there hasn't been any leader that surprised you and like that's kind of broken your rule, like your rules. It's pretty much like, Nope. Every time I find out the truth, exactly what I thought it was like, nothing has kind of broken out of that.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (32:07.368)
you know, so I'll tell you a wonderful story. So I've become over the years quite friendly with my friend, George Zimmer, the founder and for many years, the CEO of the men's warehouse. wrote a case on the men's warehouse. and then of course, in, I think, I think it was 2013, one day he got thrown out. had, he he had hired a successor.
He and the successor did not get along even though the successor had worked for him for a long time. And he was thrown out as chairman. So I said, you know, I teach a class on losing power because many people have. And so I said, will you come to my class? So he said, absolutely. So I gave, I drove over at that time he had an office in Fremont, California. He doesn't anymore. I drove over to Fremont, gave him a copy of the book, Power. And he comes to the class and he holds up the book and he said,
Dave Lu (32:39.182)
Hmm.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:03.496)
If I had read this book, I would probably, and followed its advice, I would probably still be CEO of the men's warehouse, but I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror. And then my response to him was, said, know, George, I'm sure that's true. Maybe it's true, maybe not. I said, but you know, there are 17,000 people who work for the men's warehouse, who by the way, love you.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:27.168)
because they do. He had an amazing relationship. He had a much better relationship with his rank and file employees than he did with his board of directors, which is one of the reasons why he's no longer in his job. In any event, I said, you know, I said, let me suggest to you that you all have had and have a responsibility to those people. And your first responsibility, Machiavelli talks about this. And I know I'm not supposed to probably quote Machiavelli, that the first job of a leader is to keep his job.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (33:56.638)
Because on the day that you are no longer the leader, you cannot take care of your 17,000, in this case, employees. You cannot longer build a culture in which you are going to absorb the increases in health care costs. You cannot build a culture in which you can take people who had a difficult life and give them second and third and fourth chances, you know, even when they've taken a pair of socks or put a deposit in their pocket or whatever.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (34:25.21)
Because he was famous for basically helping people to become better versions of themselves. And I said, when you're no longer in that job, you can't do any of that. So in order to do good, you have to have the power to do good. And so your first responsibility as a leader is to keep your damn position.
Dave Lu (34:33.07)
Mm.
Dave Lu (34:46.51)
Yeah, that's, that's, I mean, I think more. So that's why people don't realize how important power is not just for the negative, but for the positive. Good leaders, as you say, if power is peace for good, more good people, more good people need power. Wait, you didn't, did you say that? Or was it someone else who said, yeah, you said that? Okay. yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, we need more people, like good people in power. you know, one thing that I've written about
Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:02.999)
I said that, I think.
Dave Lu (35:13.518)
uh, recently, and I'd love to hear your take on it is, you know, lot of folks are saying, oh, well, you know, there are a lot of, you know, successful Asian leaders and, um, out there and running their CEOs of all these companies. And I noticed, and everyone's noticed that they're specifically Indian men. Do you have thoughts on why, I mean, I've, I have my thoughts on why, but why specifically Indian men have managed, they, they index far higher, even than, um, you know, white men in terms of population and the companies.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:29.608)
Yes.
Dave Lu (35:42.99)
that they're at to become CEOs. What are your thoughts on that?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (35:46.118)
I don't actually have any thoughts on that. I have a friend who you probably know, Nushin Hashemi. Nushin was an early employee at Oracle. She's a Persian. she has thoughts about, she actually built, she was writing stuff and then going to build a class on why different immigrant populations do better at different things and why, you know, why the Persians have been, I think, quite successful financially.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (36:14.868)
but are not very active politically. There are other groups that have not been so successful financially, but are more active. So she has a whole, she had a whole theory about ethnic, why some ethnic groups do better than others at various aspects of life. Unfortunately, she never taught that class or wrote the book. So I can't really give you her theory. So I really don't have an answer to that question, but you certainly have pointed something out that I think is true.
Dave Lu (36:42.892)
Yeah, mean, the way I, well, I theorize that it's culturally, you know, that they are not, they're raised unafraid of conflict. It's kind of like not a, in a lot of, Eastern Asian cultures, the kind of Confucian, like, you know, values are that you try to maintain peace and harmony, whereas they're okay with, you know, having, they don't think of conflict as a bad thing. It's like having a debate, having a discussion, it's okay, but they don't, you know, and I think,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (36:43.956)
What's your theory?
Dave Lu (37:12.526)
Sometimes like I've heard that, you it could be pushed too far, but they don't find it as a bad thing to be able to have, you know, hard conversations. And if you can't have hard conversations, you know, you can't, you can't fire people. can't, you know, argue your way into, you know, certain positions. And so I think that that culturally, and then also they're more willing to socialize outside of their own culture. So I've seen that, you know, personally that a lot of East Asians tend to just kind of stay in their bubbles and safe comfort zones.
I feel like a lot of South Asian men are more willing to socialize outside of their ethnic group. a big part of it, is historically colonization from the British has also, that English speaking, English as a native language, very helpful for that too, that they also not, they've learned the ways from the British. And so there's much more Western than it is kind of Eastern or Asian kind of culture. But a number of things I found.
and then there's also, I hear from my Indian friends that Indian men or boys, their parents or mothers are very, they, they, make them feel like princes, whereas the daughters don't necessarily like feel that way. So they are more emboldened to behave a certain way. And, you know, and you know, this, you sometimes have to act entitled or feel entitled to get the things you want. And some, sometimes that helps a lot.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (38:38.026)
Yep. Yep. Well, that's a, it's an interesting, it's an interesting theory. I don't know if it's right, it's, it sounds extremely plausible. So it's probably.
Dave Lu (38:49.934)
Yeah. mean, I think it's just, it's it's such a strong phenomenon because you see the top like 10 tech companies, like four or five of them are, Indian men being run by Indian men. So it is, it's a very obvious or, know, you can see that, that there is something that's, that they've done right. And that we can learn from too. So I think your next book should be on that, on Indian men. So I guess I want to hear from you, do you have any thoughts on kind of agency? like in terms of how do you, how, from someone who's taken your class and you see that like, this person does not buy anything I'm saying, or they, they're, they're, they're so shy. They're so, you know, passive, there's no way they're going to, you know, gain agency for themselves or speak up or self promote. mean, there's just no chance. Cause I'm sure.
In the many classes that you've taught about, you know, and passive power, there have been folks that did not believe in themselves enough to actually take that, you know, take, take heart and a lot of the lessons. Like, can you think of some stories where that people have broken out of that? Cause I think.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (40:03.06)
Well, so one of the things I did, and I don't know if you know Carol Robin, who was a lecturer at the GSB. about now, I don't know how many years ago, about 15 years ago, she and I used to be.
But she was a lecturer at the GSB. She ran the coaching program. She taught interpersonal dynamics, which the GSB people sometimes know as the class touchy feely. She ran the leadership program when there was a Center for Leadership Development, which I think no longer exists, but in any event, so she was quite active in all of that. And so I went out to lunch with her and I said, I want my class to have more impact on people.
At the moment, we were studying a bunch of people, interesting people, people like Robert Moses, who basically built New York City and State, or Lyndon Johnson, who created things that the Republicans are still trying to overdo 60 years later, and with the Voting Rights Act and a bunch of other stuff. And, you know, these interesting people. And I said, you know, the students look at them like bugs, interesting phenomena, but they could not possibly see how they could relate to them. And she gave me a number of pieces of advice.
And one of the pieces of advice was write cases on people that your students can relate to. So I wrote a case on Keith Frazi, Harvard MBA, you know. So I've tried to write cases on people who are similar to, and bring in as guests, people who are similar to the students in the class. I have an alumni panel, et cetera. OK, that's number one. The second thing she told me to do, or we talked about doing, is to have the students
Don't do a group project in which you study somebody else. Have them do what I've now come to call a pass-the-power project, where during the course of the quarter, you do something where you use the material of the class to try to accomplish something. And hire, which I was able to get the business school to pay for, executive coaches to help them make the transition from observer to act.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (42:15.148)
And so I did all of those things. And so I don't have many people in my class who don't do something during the quarter because they have to do a pass the power project. And they have coaches that are pushing them to be bolder and to push themselves farther and to get out of their comfort zone. And so I have built an infrastructure that helps people make this transition that you're talking about.
Dave Lu (42:40.814)
and what about the people who don't take the class and just read the books?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (42:45.152)
Well...
Some of them reach out to me and say, you recommend an executive coach? And I send them the list of the coaches who work with the class, which is fine. Happy to do it to any of your listeners. My coaches who work with the class help build their coaching practice by working with the class. You have to do something. Social support is important. And you have to do something to get yourself support for doing things, particularly for doing things that are uncomfortable for you. I say, how did?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (43:17.12)
Venus and Serena Williams become great tennis players. They became great tennis players by practice and coaching. That's how you become good at anything. That's how you're going to become good at leadership. That's how you're going to become a good executive. You need coaching and you need practice. And anybody can get coaching and anybody can get practice.
Dave Lu (43:34.946)
I mean, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it is like a sport. you get it's a skill. Like this is all skills that you have to learn and train and work on and repeat and
Jeffrey Pfeffer (43:46.592)
That's correct. And I did not have the good fortune to know Dave Lu a thousand years ago. But I suspect that you are a different person today. I mean, you're still Dave Lu. You didn't change your name. Didn't change. You didn't do gender reassignment surgery or anything else. You are still who you are. And the essence of you is still the same. But your behaviors, I suspect, are quite different than what they were 20 or 30 years ago.
Dave Lu (44:11.074)
Mm-hmm.
I mean, even like five, 10 years ago, I think it's changed drastically. yeah, no, it's true. And I think I get it. I hear a lot of skeptics about coaching and they're like, wow, it's so expensive. I don't know if it's worth it. I can just read books. and like, What would you say to those folks?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (44:31.09)
I would say...
You know, you're going to spend money on all kinds of stuff. Spend money on yourself. Spend money on yourself. You know, you're going to you're going to buy houses and cars and drive cars that are more expensive than what you probably need. You're gonna buy a Tesla, you know, and help and help support Elon Musk and spend seventy four thousand dollars for a car as near is I could determine falls apart. You know, I have a friend who bought a Tesla, you know, getting out of his car one day, the door handle came off.
You know, whatever. I mean, the quality is pretty crappy, but in any event, you spend a lot of money on stuff you don't need. Spend money on yourself. What is more important to invest in than your own career and your own life?
Dave Lu (45:17.612)
Yeah, no, it's, mean, I tell people that if you invest that now, it compounds, the return will compound and you'll actually make more so you can have more to spend. But if you don't take that chance, if you don't invest, you know, you're just squirreling away. And with scarcity mindset, I think you're stuck with that. You keep thinking, well, it's not worth it. I'll just read the books or I'll spend a little on Jeff's masterclass, which I think you should, his books. But I think a coach can specifically tell you.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (45:43.456)
Yeah.
Dave Lu (45:44.174)
your weaknesses are and your bad habits and how you can fix them.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (45:47.762)
And also a coach is going to help you do something which I think reading a book will not do. So if you read a book, no one is going to hold you accountable for turning that knowledge into action. So you have to have, you know, the Wall Street Journal writes about having a personal board of directors, whatever, you need to have somebody to help hold you accountable. I mean, that's why, you know, my wife,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (46:15.144)
Now we've moved into this new house. We have a gym. We turned one of the bedrooms. We have lots of bedrooms. So we turned one of the bedrooms into a gym. have a, what she calls a gym bathroom, which is gorgeous by the way, you know, and she has a personal trainer who now comes to the house. used to go to see the personal trainer. Why the hell do you need the personal trainer? You know, in theory,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (46:36.126)
You know, she's working with her with the weights and the exercises and the stretches and the other thing. In theory, you can do that on your own. People have a personal trainer because the personal trainer holds them accountable in a way that they would not do if they did it on their own. It's the same thing here. It's the same thing that we're talking about. Somebody, you need somebody to hold you accountable, to push you. Yes, you can lift that weight.
Dave Lu (47:01.398)
Yeah, it's true. I mean, you can watch a YouTube and how to do it, but if no one keeps telling you to do it and they see you make a mistake or something else that can fix that. Yeah, so I am curious your thoughts. I know that a lot of my power influence comes because I've built up a network in this day and it's, think it's everything. mean, network matters more building alliances, coalitions and sponsors, as you say, it matters more than going at it alone, but they create opportunities and
Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:06.4)
Yeah.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:20.02)
Of course.
Dave Lu (47:31.126)
protection in political environments and other environments as well where you need the sponsors to have your back. In this day and age on social media, you've, you you're getting, you're pretty active on LinkedIn. read your posts. What do you think has changed? Cause you know, 20, 30 years ago, there was no LinkedIn. There was no social media. Do you feel like the game has changed somewhat with social media? I mean, I feel like a lot of people have built their reputations completely on social media.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (47:58.88)
You've answered your own question. I think, the way, you've given a very good answer, which is I think that's exactly correct. I think people have been able, you know, everybody says now in the age of social media, you can't BS as much as you used to because people will find you out. I actually think you can BS more.
Dave Lu (48:17.502)
more. 100 % Yeah, I mean, it's like the ghost writing thing you were talking about, right? You can control the narrative if you're the one setting it up and yeah.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (48:24.384)
That is absolutely correct. So I think you ought to use as many channels as possible. So one of the exercises that I give in my class, both the online version of the class and the on-campus version of class, is we talk about building a personal brand. What is your brand statement? Who are you? What do you stand for? How is your life experience made you uniquely qualified and, you know, suited for doing what you are aspiring to do? And then...
How are you gonna pitch the brand? How are you gonna get people to know what your brand is? I mean, know, Mercedes has a brand, Coca-Cola has a brand, everybody, all the companies have a brand, but they also don't say, well, you know, we built this brand and now we're gonna keep it a secret. They actually try to make sure that everybody knows what it is they do and what they stand for.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:19.452)
So you need to make sure that somebody besides your immediate family knows what your brand is. That's correct.
Dave Lu (49:24.662)
Yeah, no, you've got to promote. I mean, again, you say no one's going to notice you unless you have the brand, but that you're differentiated from another. If it's, if Mercedes BMW and Lexus were all the same, then no one would, you you can, you wouldn't choose, you just choose any random one. But I think same goes for at your company, your, job or anywhere. People have to know what you, what you mean or what you stand for before they take a bet on you. So, you know, very
Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:49.896)
Yep, yep, yep.
Dave Lu (49:54.338)
you know, helpful information.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (49:54.43)
Yeah. And I look at you and I think, you know, I think it was done out of obviously sincere emotion and sincere feeling about the fact that you were tired of seeing Asians literally physically attacked, literally physically abused, literally, you know, really harassed in some of the worst and most horrible ways possible.
But in your taking action to bring those wrongs to people's attention and to bring the plight of the Asian American community to people's attention because they were in quotes the model minority and everybody thought.
my God, the African Americans are suffering from discrimination and the Latinos are suffering from discrimination. But everybody kind of forgot about the Asian Americans and bringing all of that and bringing those stories and instances to light, you have built a brand for yourself as a defender and as an advocate for, in fact, your community. I think that's fabulous.
Dave Lu (51:01.186)
No, thank you, Jeffrey. mean, I think for so long, I didn't even realize how invisible I felt like the community felt before until I started speaking up. And then all of a sudden people felt like when they started messaging me, they felt seen. And that's what I think has continued to empower me to reach out. And by doing so, like you said, by building that brand, it also gives me more access to people because there are folks I have no business being friends with that they know the work I've done. And again, create something out of nothing or
Dave Lu (51:30.54)
what I stand for and you know, they, appreciate that whether I have no reason to have to be friends with book, but they appreciate it and their families appreciate it, their kids appreciate it. And so I think there's something to be said about building that trust and those relationships through, know, actually being proactive and, and, know, standing for something or having that brand. So, thank you for, for saying that, Jeff. do you know, do you know of other folks that you feel like have?
Jeffrey Pfeffer (51:34.674)
Of course!
Dave Lu (51:58.785)
Surprised you and how they've built their brand and built power that out of nothing. mean, I think Jason's a great story because he was, you know, just hustled his way,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (52:06.528)
Well, think another story that everybody who's listening to you can relate to, because he's on the media 100 times a minute, my friend Jeffrey Sonnenfeld. I had the privilege of knowing Jeffrey Sonnenfeld when he was an assistant professor at Harvard Business School, because he was there the year I visited Harvard Business School, 1981, 1982. And he started again. I would say the same thing about Jeff Sonnenfeld that I would say about Jason Calacanis. He's an overnight success, built over 30 years.
You know, in the sense that when he started the Chief Executive Leadership Institute, Selly, when he went to Emory University, when he didn't get tenure at Harvard, he went to Emory University, he started the Chief Executive Leadership Institute, you know.
What the hell was the Chief Executive Leadership Institute? Nothing. What was the World Economic Forum when Claus Schwab began again many, many, many decades ago? mean, these people basically, in a world in which they thought there was a... Jeffrey Sonnenfeld had written, had done research on CEOs. He'd written a book called The Hero's Farewell about CEOs leaving their jobs. And he, in his interaction with CEOs, found that CEOs were basically lonely.
that there was nobody that they could really trust and rely on, the people below them all wanted their job, you know, and whatever. And so he built a community of CEOs. And this is now, he now has enormous amounts of influence and power and status, very much as, you know, Klaus Schwab said, you know, I...
Jeffrey Pfeffer (53:41.544)
I need to build a forum where European business leaders, because this began not as a world economic forum, it began as a European business forum, to get European business leaders together. And people will tell you all the reasons why what you're going to try to do isn't going to work. And you will tell yourself those stories yourself. And what I can guarantee you.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (54:08.532)
you will not succeed if you don't try. My now deceased wife, Kathleen Fowler, looked like a supermodel. And so I was never any better looking than I am today. So somebody said, how'd you get her to go out with her? How did you get her to go out with you? And the answer was I asked, how?
You know, how do you get a job? You apply for it. Very few, very few. Maybe you got, maybe you built a relationship with an executive search firm and you get jobs that you didn't apply for. You know, but I suspect most of the people that you have connections with are connections that you were proactive in building. You didn't wait for them to come to Dave, Dave went to them.
Dave Lu (54:49.638)
Mm Right. Yep. Yeah. And a lot of it's like I always tell people, well, the worst thing they can say is no or not respond. But like, that's not that's not so bad. It's like, yeah. And sometimes, I mean, you can't I think people take things so personally, like, they didn't want to meet with me or they ignored my email. I mean, they're if they're busy, if they're powerful and busy, obviously, there's a reason they might have seen it. But yeah.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (54:59.166)
That's correct. That's correct. That's correct.
It doesn't matter. If you can't take rejection, you're not going to do very well in sales.
Dave Lu (55:18.668)
Yes, I mean, that's one thing I always thought about the GSP, like that. I wish there was there's no course on sales. feel like that's the most important.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (55:26.538)
Well, there was. I don't know if it's still being taught, but my colleague Jim Lattin and yeah, yeah, I think there is a class on sales, but you're certainly right. I have a friend named Alston Gardner. Alston built a company called Target Marketing Systems, which he sold to CBO for $300 million. He's a very wealthy man. And anyway, my friend Alston would teach a class that he stopped teaching it, I think, for a while at the University of North Carolina at the Keenan Flagler School on sales. And Olson would say the same thing. He would say, you know, says, everybody, everybody, you know, everybody's wants to be doing strategy, whatever. said, at the end of the day, you need somebody who's actually going to bring the revenue in. That's called sales. Somebody has to close the deal.
Dave Lu (56:10.956)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. But I mean, think even beyond just like selling for revenue, sales is hiring. It's like building, like raising capital. It's building relationships. It's exactly every day.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (56:23.102)
That's correct. You're selling yourself every day. Every day you are in the marketplace where you are selling who you are, you're selling your ideas, you're selling your point of view, you are selling on a regular basis, not only for your venture capital firm, but you are selling a set of ideas around the Asian American community.
Dave Lu (56:46.222)
Yeah, that was true. I it's, it's something that I think it's not inherent to when you're, feel like it was not valued as a skill. mean, when we're raised to be focused on STEM and, know, things like sales or, you know, things like that, like, that's not going to help you make any money. I'm like, that's sales is the one thing that would help you make the most money probably. but I think it's like, you know, people think, it's all fluff. It's all soft power skills, you know, like, well, that's actually what gets you access to more capital, more money, more powerful people is the, that's those soft skills. do you like, so, so I need you, you talked about how branding becoming noticeable, building reputation, making others like, tell us about, how do you make others dependent on you? I mean, I think that's an important skill that I think is helps you gain power as well.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (57:22.453)
No.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (57:40.64)
Well, I think part of that is building a network, you know, so that you can... And part of that... So everybody thinks that networking is going to some cocktail party and schmoozing with people. Networking... My friend John Levy wrote a book called You're Invited.
And he, of course, has built a career out of these influencers dinners. what he says to my class, and I think this is exactly correct, is that networking is about being generous. It is about saying, OK, I know Dave, and I know somebody else who Dave could benefit from knowing, and I'm going to connect them together. And that's how you build. then if you become or creating events. So you created dinners.
My friend, Jeff Sonnenfeld has created these events. Jason Calacanis has created a ton of events. Founder University, Angel University, Startup University, all kinds of things. This Week in Startups, and blah, And so you create forums where you, number one, control the access, but number two, where you're adding value to the people who attend those forums.
Dave Lu (58:57.55)
Yeah. mean, and those folks who attend, they feel not necessarily indebted, but they do, they appreciate and they know you're the point of contact that created that opportunity or built, you know, for them to meet other people. I always tell people in my writing was like this, making an introduction or sending an email to introduce people who you know, benefit from one another or someone will be at, I mean, it costs you literally nothing. Maybe like a minute or two of your time to write an email, but the returns from that, mean, they,
Jeffrey Pfeffer (59:05.066)
Yeah.
Dave Lu (59:27.636)
You can't even measure down the road how much that will help you. But I think some people think it's not worth the time or not worth the effort to do that. I think proactively doing so is a superpower for sure and definitely helps.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (59:35.987)
Yeah.
That's correct. And as you're discussing all the things that people
people say to you, what I hear in the stories is people making excuses for not taking action.
Dave Lu (59:53.314)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people find excuses like however they can, because then they don't want to take responsibility for their own, like realizing that they need to take, they need to do it themselves. If you can find an excuse, it's like asking permission that gives you an excuse to not, to not do anything. Cause someone is like, well they told me I can do it. But what gave them the authority to tell you you couldn't do it? Right. well, so, I think, mean, gosh, I've
Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:00:20.158)
That's exactly correct.
Dave Lu (01:00:26.114)
There's so much we always have to talk about and I love hearing your stories. And we can go on and on, which we probably will next time too, we have a meal. But I just wanted to thank you, Jeff, for being an ally first to the Asian American community. I know many folks in the community have said how grateful they are for your teaching and everyone who I've recommended the books to have devoured them and learn a lot. I think it's hard to measure how much impact you've had on many people's lives.
You get to hear on the podcast sometimes with your interviews, you know, some of your former students and you see the results. Um, but not enough people get, you don't get to hear enough from people who you've actually touched and changed their lives and the trajectory with, just by reading your book or hearing a conversation like this. think so often I write these essays and I think, Oh, well, if it helps one person, you know, actually change how they behave and it helps them. Then it's the, was worth it. It was, it was well worth it. And I know you've changed.
many, many lives more than you can even realize or will ever realize. and so I'm glad, I mean, I know you're not, you're not going to retire. You will teach until the day you can't teach. but that just means that many more people whose lives you're going to impact, for, for, you know, generations to come. So, thank you for, for taking the time to one for your friendship and also for taking the time to speak with me today.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:01:46.484)
Well, thank you for being so generous about me and my contributions and so kind to me. it's a joy and a pleasure to get to know you better. I have tremendous respect for you. And apparently, given the interaction you described that occurred when you visited my class, I apparently have a higher opinion of you than you have of yourself. There you go.
Dave Lu (01:02:13.676)
I'm working on that. I need a coach to help me talk me through that.
Jeffrey Pfeffer (01:02:16.448)
There you go. I know I have great admiration for what you've accomplished and it's really a joy to know you.
